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Post by Taga-ilog on Jan 9, 2010 21:19:42 GMT -5
Macky, Kevin, and JXM,
I admire your passion on this subject (and in other areas of Philippine history). If only many more of our countrymen share your passion then our written history - as it is written today - would be a lot better.
26th,
I also enjoy this discussion and find it very informative. On Lawton chasing two Geronimos:
Many old natives of San Mateo would always end their narrative of the battle with this adage:
"Kaya nga si Geronimo pinatay ni Lawton at si Lawton pinatay ni Geronimo."
(Geronimo was killed by Lawton and Lawton was killed by Geronimo).
A bit inaccurate but often repeated.
Richard
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Post by sumaquel on Jan 10, 2010 9:38:06 GMT -5
Richard,
Kamusta na? meron akong bago para sa inyo ni Kevin(about Gen. Geronimo)pero later ko na lang i-email sa inyo pagkatapos ng 3rd grading namin sa school.
Very interesting itong mga bago kong natatagpuang info. tungkol sa Tiradores Dela Muerte. Hindi ko muna sasabihin sa inyo yung libro(baka alam nyo na rin kung anong libro ito)pero maraming nilalaman ito tungkol sa exploit ng Tiradores Dela Muerte.
For the second time nakakuha ako ng info tungkol sa deadly capacity ng mga Tiradores Dela Muerte ni Gen. Geronimo.(yung una ay yung account ni Col. James Parker, according to him most of his casualry were hit from 800 to 1000 yards)
Its really sound impssible(firing from 1000 yards and still hiiting its mark)pero ito na, second confirmation from an american source(eyewitness)
"The Marikina fight on March 16, 1899, in which Edward Pynchon was killed and three other wounded demonstrated to the ******* the inferior range of their weapons. Later that month, filipino snipers systematically picking off members of Company E in their outpost camp, firing from the hill 1000 yards beyond the range of the springfields. Artificer Archie Aldrich was shot in the left shoulder on March 20; his would eventually proved fatal. On March 23, firing on the same hill, the inssurectos shot Pvt. Merton Esshom through the leg as he sat infront of his tent, reading the 18 February edition of the rocky mountain news."
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Post by sumaquel on Jan 13, 2010 8:47:22 GMT -5
TIRADORES DELA MUERTE THE DEADLIEST OF THEM ALL(TIRADORES)
Heres some account on how deadly the Tiradores Dela Muerte were of Gen. Licerio Geronimo Brigade...
" By 6:55 AM, Private Charles Brill and Malcon Maccoe, both of Company M, had been wounded, Brill through the right thigh, and Maccoe through the Intestines. Bandsmen carried them to the rear. As Company M moved out on the right, Capt. John Stewart of Company A deployed his men in skirmish formation and headed for the Minnesotans. Company A advanced perhaps 500 yards over rice paddies and through bamboo hedges, before the insurgents saw them. As Company A prepared to charge the last enemy trench Capt. Stewart joined them in the battle line and at 7:15 AM gave his last command. " there they are boys, give then lead!" Immediately after, he gasped, "I'm Hit," followed by "right here" wounded through the abdomen, the Captain collapsed in a faint and died twelve minutes later Company A's Pvt. Edwin Pitts was wounded in the right lung in the same volley."
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Post by sumaquel on Jan 15, 2010 9:22:16 GMT -5
TRAINING OF TIRADORES DELA MUERTE?
On that same fil-am war book you will read this american account explaining how the Filipino riflemen(Tiradores dela Muerte)got their training.
"Sims blamed the******(American Marikina Column)themeselves, for having explained the use of the sight to their filipino "Amigos" back in july, before Manila's fall. Whatever the source of the enemy's training the *******(American Marikina Column)found themselves for the first time fighting against filipino riflemen who know how to set their sights, and who fired low, at the correct range."
But somehow they were not so sure on how and where their filipino enemy got their training..
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Post by VeeVee on Jan 15, 2010 13:45:21 GMT -5
Wow at 1000 yards you'd need a scope and a bipod.
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Post by sumaquel on Jan 17, 2010 7:46:46 GMT -5
Yes Veevee 1000 yards, I think thats how they got their name "Dela Muerte", "deadly shooters' or "shooters of death". Imagine they were deadly at 1000 yards, what if an american walks much closer, what do you think will happen?(Well I guess death will surely come...)
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Post by dimasalang on Jan 17, 2010 22:18:40 GMT -5
A 1000 yard shot is doable with a Mauser rifle w/ open sights and no scope, but it is extremely difficult. Conditions would have to be perfect, rifle and barrel well maintained, as well as cartridges would have to be hand loaded to near perfection. Shooting anything at that range is like a basketball shot from 3 courts away...you would be "lobbing" the lead down range all the while taking wind in to consideration...bullet drop can range from 30ft to 50ft! Even a 5mph gust of wind would drastically effect trajectory. Skilled enough shooters even today can not hit a man size target most of the time. 1000 yard target shooting competitions with iron sights is rare in itself as it is seen as being to challenging and to difficult to do for sport/competition. The Tiradores Im sure were skilled, but I wouldn't say they were "accurate and precise" shooting at 1000 yards. It would take several shots to hit target.
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Post by VeeVee on Jan 18, 2010 6:40:24 GMT -5
They must have been more than a few firing at designated targets in multiple volleys. Essentially bracketing the target.
Just to give an idea of a target at 640 yards (not even 1000)
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macky
History Student
Posts: 63
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Post by macky on Jan 19, 2010 8:06:17 GMT -5
Yes Veevee 1000 yards, I think thats how they got their name "Dela Muerte", "deadly shooters' or "shooters of death". Imagine they were deadly at 1000 yards, what if an american walks much closer, what do you think will happen?(Well I guess death will surely come...) Ooops! what I mean here guys is that there was a reported "hit" at 1000 yards. Of course it was an "ala tiamba shot"(lucky shot)but the degree and the figures nung patama mukhang mataas. Mukhang aral nga sila(Tiradores dela muerte)kasi sa mga nababasa ko tungkol sa exploit nila madalas sa umaga(morning) at hapon lang sila namamaril kung saan payapa ang hangin(mukhang kino-consider nga nila yung galaw ng hangin)he he he...
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Post by dimasalang on Jan 19, 2010 16:49:09 GMT -5
No doubt Macky. What is impressive is they even attempted ~1000 yard shots, and at times had a hit! Even in todays war, shooting at that distance with iron sights is unheard of.
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Post by 26th on Jan 19, 2010 23:47:21 GMT -5
Welcome back Dimaslang
It is unheard of in this day and age but no harm in trying in those days. Nothing to lose but a bullet.
Nothing like a lucky shot>like all of Victors at 200 yards>ha ha
Hi VeeVee
Rudy
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Post by VeeVee on Jan 20, 2010 8:55:45 GMT -5
;D Make no mistake... those were indeed lucky shots Rudy... I'm not even going to humor myself and pretend that skill was involved ;D because my glasses were all fogged up and I couldn't see the target haha!
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Post by indiosbravos on Jan 24, 2010 9:53:13 GMT -5
Macky, Kevin, and JXM,
I've been following the discussions here for quite sometime and I must admit a picked up tons of info. Salamat po... Thank you very much..
In my own desire to further my knowledge I end up reading about Lawton's Laguna de Bay Campaign, Gen. Cailles and the Battle of Mabitac.
I'm from Santa Cruz, Laguna, Gen Cailles tomb is near our Subdivision and my Mom used to worked in Mabitac. Her Family is from Famy and Santa Maria, adjacent town of Mabitac not unlikely to be a place for Phil Army's Movement. So you see this is kinda indirectly important and interesting topic to me.
Just some points.
1. It will be interesting to have an access to " Philippine Insurrection (Revolution)" Records.
2. The Lopez Museum I believed contained a substantial amount of Filipiana books.
3. Our very own National Archives which I think was housed now in National Museum.
4. Post War (1945 ) Masteral and Doctoral (unpublished dissertations and thesis) papers of some notable Universities will be very good I think if we can find related works. They must have an access to living Veterans to interview.
5. Gen. Aguinaldo lived long enough to affect I think written History. You will not write anything that will directly or indirectly tarnish the name of the President do you?
6. Most of available 'Memoirs' of our Heroes contradict themselves and some established known facts.
Just a thought...
Lawrence
P.S. Keep it up guys....
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macky
History Student
Posts: 63
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Post by macky on Jan 29, 2010 11:41:02 GMT -5
Macky, Kevin, and JXM, I've been following the discussions here for quite sometime and I must admit a picked up tons of info. Salamat po... Thank you very much.. In my own desire to further my knowledge I end up reading about Lawton's Laguna de Bay Campaign, Gen. Cailles and the Battle of Mabitac. I'm from Santa Cruz, Laguna, Gen Cailles tomb is near our Subdivision and my Mom used to worked in Mabitac. Her Family is from Famy and Santa Maria, adjacent town of Mabitac not unlikely to be a place for Phil Army's Movement. So you see this is kinda indirectly important and interesting topic to me. Just some points. 1. It will be interesting to have an access to " Philippine Insurrection (Revolution)" Records. 2. The Lopez Museum I believed contained a substantial amount of Filipiana books. 3. Our very own National Archives which I think was housed now in National Museum. 4. Post War (1945 ) Masteral and Doctoral (unpublished dissertations and thesis) papers of some notable Universities will be very good I think if we can find related works. They must have an access to living Veterans to interview. 5. Gen. Aguinaldo lived long enough to affect I think written History. You will not write anything that will directly or indirectly tarnish the name of the President do you? 6. Most of available 'Memoirs' of our Heroes contradict themselves and some established known facts. Just a thought... Lawrence P.S. Keep it up guys.... Lawrence, Nice to hear your interest on this subject. Richard, Kevin and me started this research a few years ago, we exchange information and we accumulated lots of information about Gen. Licerio Geronimo, Battle of San Mateo and the Tiradores Dela Muerte from books, newspaper article and American accounts.(official and personal)hope of finding more and bring a much clearer picture of the battle(Battle of San Mateo) Kevin, The real battle between the Americans and the Licerio Geronimo Brigade and its Tiradores is not in San Mateo but in marikina and San Francisco Del Monte.(area of operation of the third zone which is under the command of Gen. Licerio Geronimo) In Marikina, the first Colorado Volunteers encountered for the first time the rear guard of Gen. Geronimo the Tiradores Dela Muerte 110 men strong(by Republican Army Standard)firing in a hill(most probably in ateneo Loyola heights)1000 yards from the American position(at the edge of santolan road overlooking markina valley most probably in Camp Aguinaldo or in a small camp Atienza below near the Marikina river. They reported heavy casualty on their side with names of their dead and wounded.. See our documents "campaign of San Mateo" labeled as "C" Headquarters of 11th Cavalry pumping station and the description of the first Colorado Volunteers on their post at the edge of the santolan road overlooking marikina. Check this book, available now in the web, it contains the exploit of Gen. Licerio Geronimo Brigade and its Tiradores Dela Muerte: "Colorado Volunteers infantry in the Philippine war 1898-1899" by Geoffrey Hunt Let me hear your opinion on this Macky .
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Post by sumaquel on Feb 2, 2010 11:05:46 GMT -5
TELEGRAM FROM THE COMMANDER OF THE THIRD ZONE
"In compliance with an order from your headquarters, I suspended hostilities last night, keeping my men in strategic positions. This afternoon the enemy burnt Mariquina; on account of that and of reports of an action toward Caloocan, I doubt the truth of the telegram ordering a suspension. I need Mauser and Remington ammunition; only 3,900 rounds remain." ---Philippine Revolutionary Record-Taylor---
The telegram was sent to the headquarters of Gen. Antonio Luna in Polo Bulacan(Now Valenzuela)possibly on March 25(the day mariquina was burned by the first Colorado Volunteers)by the commander of the third zone(Gen. Licerio Geronimo)
This is the first "Filipino battlefield report"(in this sector of Mariquina, San Mateo, montalban line)that I ever read. Could there be more of this report as his forces retreated to the stronghold of San Mateo and Montalban?
Note that while fighting in Mariquina some of his forces fought also in Caloocan.--macky
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Post by mandragorapharmacy on Mar 3, 2010 7:28:16 GMT -5
Bonifacio Mariano Street (shortened to "B. Mariano St.") in San Mateo, Rizal Province, named in honor of the Filipino who fired the shot that killed General Lawton
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macky
History Student
Posts: 63
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Post by macky on Mar 3, 2010 10:10:51 GMT -5
Bonifacio Mariano Street (shortened to "B. Mariano St.") in San Mateo, Rizal Province, named in honor of the Filipino who fired the shot that killed General Lawton Thanks for the interest sir, Yes he was the one named by early Katipuneros in San Mateo as the one who shot and killed Gen. Henry Lawton in the battle of San Mateo(Thread 2 of this topic with some photo's and documents) Unfortunately for this hero, he was not recognized by our historians because of this simple reasoning; "Could be, but there is no official documentation on the identity of the sniper who killed Lawton. So credit goes to Gen Licerio Geronimo who led the Filipino forces. It was uncanny that Lawton was involved in the capture of the Apache chief Geronimo in 1886 and was killed in the Philippines by the men of Gen Geronimo. Will post pix of the Lawton funeral when I find them--Ambeth Ocampo" So sad actually, imagine dying for the freedom of those people na di ka naman kinilala at kinikilala...In 1969 a certain Tata Purong and Capt. Celedono Salamat(Both old Katipuneros in San Mateo)named Bonifacio Mariano as the one who shot and killed Gen. Lawton....The remarks of sir Ambeth Ocampo(the remarks was made on his facebook account)would gave an impression to others that the story was not true.....O baka di nga naman kasi talaga totoo yung kwento.....Pero ang problema, they have the chance(early historian)to verify the claim(during the early days)but they did not do so... Here's some facts: 1. A certain William Colombe of 4th US Cavalry(Body guard of Gen. Lawton)said that the sharpshooter who shot Gen. Lawton was also shot dead on his position at the top of a tree. 2. The Filipino stories also said that the one who shot Gen. Lawton(Bonifacio Mariano)was also died in that battle...(what a co-incidence)
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Post by BbdhjeJhdj on Sept 25, 2019 7:14:19 GMT -5
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