Playing the "bad guy"

[adroth]

Percentage wise, how many people choose to play the winning side of a battle?

For those who choose to play "the bad guys", what is the appeal?

For example, the folks who choose to play the Japanese forces in WWII re-enactments.

[legionnaire]

The majority of American still choose to play the winning side. I know a lot who do multiple roles in different events.

The appeal for reenacting "Imperial Japs" now is because of it's new novelty and the popuar theme of pacific war coming in to the public media. But most of the California "Japs" are all white guys who just want to join for the fun and do "battle" with "Marine " reenactors. A few pinoys do "Jap" reenaating for the novelty and fascination of the Japanese military culture plus this side has not been cover much until now. Plus they are indemand now as everyone wants to have a "battle' with them and do all the pacific battles.

As for the east coast there is still a big following on the "Wehrmacht" and SS troops. To the point of huge investments and time. Playing the "bad" guys still has that notoriety appeal and the US was never occupied by any of the axis forces, so a lot of the new generations cannot comprehend the experience and sufferings of occupied countiries. not like in Asia and Europe, were doing impressions of them is not that enthusiastically welcomed.

In England "Vietnam" has a big following in reenactments. Also American civil war.

Philip

[victoree]

I would look really stupid playing a Japanese soldier. I am about as white Irish as they come. I am almost 44 and weigh 225 pounds. I can easily do white troops in the Philippines. I cannot pull off the other impressions.

Martin

[legionnaire]

That's the funny thing about the local "Jap" reenactors here is that they keep having to explain to the public that there were these Japanese of northern Japan that were white blue eye? something!
And I say yah right the whole Japanese Army was recruited from that region!

This group are into "accuracy on everything Japanese" except their recruits! Yet they won an award for best depiction and display period!

That's the great thing about doing the "Battling Bastards of Bataan" as American and Filipino troops trained, fought and died side by side! So it works well for Asian and Caucasian reenactors to participate together as a unit.

Philip

[adroth]

Are there any Japanese re-enactors?

[RayAdillO]

adroth said:

Are there any Japanese re-enactors?

There are about five to three IJA reenactors who fly-in from Japan to participate. There are two to three who are of Japanese descent. One is half-caucasian, half-japanese who happens to be the leader of the Japanese Army reenactor group here. One is even Filipino, plus maybe three to four Russians (or Ukranians?), the rest are white Americans.

I kinda wish there were more of them because it would be easier to explain to the public why Bataan fell. Seeing a horde of Japanese overwhelm a dozen or so USAFFE troops is easier to accept than a few of them capturing a whole bunch of us. ;D

[Sandata]

When I joined the Buhay na Kasaysayan group, I decided to acquire the Spanish Guardia Civil outfit primarily because it could be turned into a rebel Tiradores los Muertes outfit just by changing the headgear from a Spanish sun helmet or spiked helmet to a Philippine buri hat or sombrero with a KKK pin on the forehead.

Everyone else at the time had chosen a version of the Rayadillo uniform of the Philippine Revolutionary Army. I thought, how would we do an actual battle reenactment if there were no enemy uniforms? We can't all be good guys all the time, right.

Anyway, as seen in my "Rayadillo Heneral vs Guardia Civil Sarhento" photo slideshow, I have Oriental features so it does look strange that I'm the one wearing the Spanish uniform whereas Nonito Flores with the mestizo features is wearing the uniform of a Filipno general.

Oh well, maybe I can just cover my face with a Moriones Festival mask, he he he.

What we need in the Manila BNK is someone with Caucasian features who will acquire the uniform of a Spanish or American officer. We could then support him/them with a squad of Pampangueño Macabebe Scouts to serve as local enemy troops.

[79thfoot]

I'm used to playing the 'bad guy' as I already play the Royal Navy/East India Company character Norrington in Black Pearl Philippines (Pirates of the Caribbean cosplay group). I'm hoping to set up a group of British/Sepoy group for the British invasion of Philippines 1762-64 using my guys (technically just one guy, but he's got some friends who sometimes tag along) as the base/core group.

Also, in a pinch, I'd like to try in the future (after the British Invasion group is done) to set them up with Filipino militia - the blue and red with white lace trim (is that Guardia Civil? Filipino Heritage and Osprey identifies the wearers as 'Filipino militiamen') or 70th Regimento de Magallanes costumes.

Cheers,
Tom

[legionnaire]

Hi Tom,

Welcome to our little forum here! Great that you are an addition to the Pinoy reenactors in Manila. Hope you enjoy our forum here!Cheers.!

Philip

[79thfoot]

Hi Philip,

Thanks very much - I was invited by the gents from BnK who I met the other weekend at TAGCOM. I've actually wanted to do something like this for the longest time and I'm glad that there are also other like-minded Filipinos who are out there and interested.

Salutes,
Tom

[philipramos]

In many Civil War weekends, the Saturday Battle tries to recreate a historic battle with the outcome predetermined. On Sunday, the units start in their historc positions, but the tactics are determined in the field with the commanders present that day and the outcome is unpredictable. This is where some of the appeal of working the "bad guys" side of the fence comes from.

[79thfoot]

Okay... this is definitely one for this forum and this topic specifically.

I'd like to ask this of you guys because most of you are veteran reenactors with a passion for militaria and history.

How do you feel about guys who play WW2 Germans - not necessarily Waffen SS but lets say Afrika Korps or Fallschirmjager or Heer? I've been catching a lot of flak recently because I'm working on a bunch of German WW2 uniforms but some people think it's disgusting or offensive because of what the Germans did or that playing lets say Rommel or Molders or Galland would be offensive because they're like national heroes in Germany.

Well... if we're talking atrocities, why are there people playing the Russians or the Japanese? I'm sure we all know how horrific the Japanese were to the Filipinos in WW2 yet no one seems offended that people want to reenact them.

If we're talking national heroes, why do we portray MacArthur or Robert E. Lee or Bonifacio and not German WW2 heroes, particularly those who were against nazism or who tried to save Jewish lives. Like if I played Kurt Gerstein or Oskar Schindler that would apparently be offensive while if I played M.L.King or William Wilburforce it wouldn't.

I really don't get what I see as a double standard.

Hope I've not opened a big can of worms here...
Tom

[VeeVee]

Hi Tom,
I guess it depends on what it means to you or depends on the context of the event where the audience could take the impression the wrong way. There are many different reasons why people put together impressions -- and flavors of events.

There are those who see impression building and reenacting as a pure hobby akin to model building. The smallest details are painstakingly re-created and impressions are "collected" just as one would collect airplane models. It doesn't mean that when they don a German impression they're glorifying the nazis. It's just another impression in the collection.

There's also the angle where those who assume say the German or Japanese impression simply needed to be the "opfor" for the skirmish reenactment. Someone has to be the other team or there won't be a game. Reenacting an impression is the same as taking on a role in a movie. It's a role. No emotional and ideological attachment to wearing it.

There are some of us that like dabbling in reenacting for fun but while acting like the fans of a sports team. Fans of sports teams wear their teams' jerseys in a game for support and pride. I myself am kind of like that. I started dabbling in PS living history reenacting to represent and display heritage pride. This is part of the reason why even though the combat impressions of the Philippine Scouts didn't wear the carabao patch, I do in my impression. I'm "wearing" the historical "jersey" for "team pride" and for the benefit of the audience.

When this is the case, there is a glorifying purpose involved. So this is probably the angle from where those who criticize the German impression are coming from. They misunderstand the purpose of the worn impression and don't see it as simply an artistic creation and a collected impression.

So the question is, in what context do these people see your German impression? Are they used to seeing reenactors portray events? Is it a cosplay event? Depending on the circle of people, how a German impression is viewed can vary.

I know in the book Wargames (about reenacting), an old lady who attended a living history event who happened to have lived through nazi occupation in WW2 went ballistic upon seeing German reenactors. While it was perfectly okay for most of the general audience who saw reenacting for what it was.

Just my 2 cents. -victor

[legionnaire]

Doing anything representing Germany WWII history will always carry it's stigma, the same goes for doing Japanese impressions specially in Asia. It's very hard to differentiate them as it is all part of its history.

Just with the BNK alone just trying to raise awareness about Philippine heroes and military history is already an uphill and difficult challenge to the Filipino public to even be acknowledge and appreciated, what more the rare and less well know specific German personalities of WWII.

Philip

[79thfoot]

Thanks for the input guys :-) I utterly agree. I tend to go for the opfor side mainly because it adds to the overall impression - great heroes are greater for the greater adversity they face, kinda thing.

One of the few bits of actual militaria I've got here is an Afrika Korps jacket - I'm not sure if it's genuine, it's most likely a repro but I get the feeling I'd get a lot of grief if I actually work on putting together an Afrika Korps impression.

I can understand though how a German uniform or a Japanese uniform would unnerve people who lived through it - it took me till I was in college to 'forgive' the Japanese people for what they did here in WW2. As you know, my late grandfather was in Capas.

Thanks for the points you brought up VeeVee, they really encapsulate a lot of what I was trying to get at.

Actually, its for a cosplay event and here's where it kinda gets iffy. Its for the movie Valkyrie - a bunch of us Filipino cosplayers are going to be playing Stauffenberg and co. We're not including Mister Hilter and the SS, it'll basically be Stauffenberg (played by me), a Grossdeutchland Wachtbattalion soldat, General Fellgiebel and one more. The Afrika Korps and Luftwaffe uniforms will be on standby if more want to join. I was asking some uniform questions on another forum and they practically chewed me out for being a part of that.

I guess it gets blurry because these are real historical characters and Stauffenberg is a German national hero. But then, I don't see people getting mad when someone plays MacArthur or Patton or Bonifacio. Also, since its a movie, there's that aspect of being characters in a narrative.

I don't mean to be disrespectful and dishonouring but I get the impression that if I dressed up as Lt.Cerezo of the Spanish Cazadores or a Filipino officer for the Mark Meily film Baler's premiere I wouldn't be getting grief but if I dress up as Stauffenberg, suddenly I'm an insensitive jerk.

Many thanks,
Tom

[RayAdillO]

Any military uniform can be perceived as controversial, it really depends upon what context it is being worn. I dare say, it would be in bad taste to wear a WW2 British bomber pilot's uniform during any memorial ceremony marking the firebombing of Dresden or Hamburg for example.

I remember during the 70s there was a Philippine comedian named Ramon Zamora who became famous locally as a crime-fighting superhero dressed like Hitler, complete with swastika on his boots.

These days, almost every army in the world uses a type of combat uniform that resembles the Waffen SS, (mottled camouflage with nazi looking kevlar helmet).

Generally, I'm glad the Bundeswehr is slowly bringing back some of the good old traditions of the German Army.



Some countries like Chile don't agonize much about political correctness when it comes to their army's parade uniform and goose stepping Prussian-style marches, to them it's just in keeping with their traditions which have nothing to do with nazism.

[79thfoot]

yea lolz... though I guess it was America that kinda started the trend. I remember reading about the Santo Tomas internees being shocked when the 1st Cav rescued them. They were so used to the 1917 'Tommy style' helmets that they thought that Germans were invading UST.

[RayAdillO]

I believe the P.O.W.s also thought that when the Rangers raided Cabanatuan.

[79thfoot]

hehe, definitely!

[insurrectomad]

I was still shocked to see a jap soldier wearing his 'Banzie' bandaner around his forehead at Kent County Show in England last year, & I've been doing reenactment for 26yrs! The Waffen SS and Gestapo groups enraged some people and London TV did an hour long 'undercover' investigation as to ther motives for playing these roles! When secretly filming these English members at a local pub, they revealed that some held strong racist feelings, and 2 or more belonged to the Brit. Nat. Party (BNP) =Neo Nazis. TV phone lines went red -hot!! Worst still was a wedding with the bribe dressed a Concentration camp guard & the groom as a gestapo officer working beneath the Swastika flags of the guard of honour! If you think that outside America the passing of time will dull folks passions, then think again! The guys playing the Waffen SS came in for a lot of flak at the end of the event for praying clean nice guys & not killers of POW's etc! I could of told them that even that dosn't wash with "Joe Public". The Sealed Knot Soc. (E.C.W. 1642-48), did a reenactment of "The Pitchfork Rebellion" Or The Monmouth Rebellion in Somerset County England. My royalist regt. group was asked to spit into 2 groups. Group 1 (my group) played Col. Kirks "Lambs" & Group 2 Local Peasant rebels. The "Lambs" had spent years in Tangiers savagely suppressing "Wog" rebels. We played out our part faithfully, to the oringinal battle ( same place 300yrs later) throwing the wounded rebs into the d**es that edged the field, hanging 2 Peasants more 9 mates Ben & Steve) from the very same tree, and flogging the women Until the "blood" came through the backs of blouses. We of Kirk's Lambs were refused food and drink by everyone one in the town & shund like lepers! Thank God group 2 represented local ancestral heroes and got the booze etc in for us. 100s of rebels were hang at al the crossroads in the county & the fittest sent to be slaves in the Caribbean Isles working in the sugar-fields. We researched the uniforms but neglected the rest, alas. To this day widows & doors arse shut when a member of the Royal Family passes through the town. But the greatest rumpus was in France when an old women on hearing us speaking English at a Napoleonic Do, shouted across the bar " You Eeenglishh! You burnt Joan D' Arc! I was thinking "Blimey! that's 500 years ago! when Mike (our Col.) replied in his posh English accent "Burnt? Ney madam, we made her the Toast of France! What a British rout there was that night as we fled from 3 80 yr old french witches down the rd to seek refuge in an other bar. So be warned, Japs in Bataan Phils?? not in our lifetime I think.