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Post by VeeVee on Apr 4, 2008 9:50:44 GMT -5
Hmm... that does sound like a gray area. However like you said you could always be the GC that switched over to the Filipino side. The GC were also Filipinos. It's all a matter of interpretation and does have a place in a parade that celebrates a colorful heritage.
Philip, it's not any worse than when you asked Tim and his Japanese reenactors to attend the observance of the fall of Corregidor last year, an event where many Filipino vets attended, honored and given recognition. When he declined, it's probably for the similar reason that you are pointing out here. But then you probably wanted to have an actual battle reenactment show last year which wasn't possible anymore when the Japanese reenactors declined the invitation. However I can understand why they declined. It wasn't really an independent reenactment but rather more of an event honoring the Filipino vets.
I don't know... both have valid points. In the end it's all in the individual interpretations. Gray areas all over this hobby. It's like religion and politics.
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Post by 79thfoot on Apr 4, 2008 10:53:40 GMT -5
That's the way I'm approaching it from. In BnK, Selwyn also plays a GC at the events but his story is that he joins the revolution when he sees what Spain has been doing to his countrymen.
By the way, there were accounts of pinoy soldiers who had gone over to the revolutionary side ambushing Spanish columns because they knew the passwords/bugle calls and they could wear their old uniforms to approach the unwary Spaniards before launching their ambush.
Maybe we could have revolutionary cockades in our teresianas instead of the yellow and red? ;-) Or a Spanish cedula on the point of our machete tagalog? Just so they know whose side we're on? Would that perhaps be a good solution?
Humbly yours, Tom
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Post by legionnaire on Apr 4, 2008 11:57:18 GMT -5
"Philip, it's not any worse than when you asked Tim and his Japanese reenactors to attend the observance of the fall of Corregidor last year, an event where many Filipino vets attended, honored and given recognition. When he declined, it's probably for the similar reason that you are pointing out here. But then you probably wanted to have an actual battle reenactment show last year which wasn't possible anymore when the Japanese reenactors declined the invitation. However I can understand why they declined. It wasn't really an independent reenactment but rather more of an event honoring the Filipino vets. "
This idea originate from Manny Ortega and I agreed that would add to a display presentation, NOT to be a part of any ceremony/parade proceedings just a display EXHIBIT to the public to see who or what the enemy wore. And the whole purpose was to display the uniforms, equipment of the opposing force.
There was never any plan for the Japanese Reenactors to march side by side or actively participate in the ceremony as that would be definely be out of place.
There was never any plan or idea to even have a battle in the Filipino town as that was a residencial neighborhood. And it was Dr Batongmalaque who wanted a mock battle staged in Filipinotown. And I explained to her that was not possible as that is downtown LA and there is no wide open ground away from the denly populated neighborhood to even consider it. So a simple display was the easiest way to present them.
Yes they declined our invitation on those convienient "valid reasons" but in other American public events they even went so far as to even have the ignorance to present the KEMPEI TAI at Fort MacArthur. Yet they see it as no offense to any Vets going to the Fort Mac event specially showcasing the Kempetai. Give me a break! And we all know who and what their participation in History was. There is definetly Double standards clearly shown here for their obvious convience. If they were very aware and cautious on offending any Vets or any who suffered under the Japanese then why even go so far to have Kempeitai reenactors at a public event? ANG KAPAL NANG MAG MUKA NILA! Arrogance and callousness?
BTW German reenactors are banned at Fort MacArthur!
Philip
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Post by VeeVee on Apr 4, 2008 12:03:52 GMT -5
Wow really? German reenactors are now allowed at Fort Mac? Why? I thought I saw WWI Germans in the pictures.
They had Kempei Tai at Fort Mac last year? How do you even portray a kempei tai? Did they wear a distinct uniform? Yeah that would be out of place.
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Post by legionnaire on Apr 4, 2008 12:13:27 GMT -5
Only WWI German reenactors are allowed as the WWII "Krauts" were banned as they were getting carried away with their role from what I heard.
As for Kempeitai impression they wore Arm bands to clearly display who they were. Not knwoing or they should really know but were just so overconfident that it was OK for them and need not have an excuse as they think there will never be a Vet in that huge event offended?
Philip
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Post by 26th on Apr 4, 2008 17:13:45 GMT -5
Hi Vic,Tom and Philip:
Just a break form all the fun.
Did you guys know that the 26th Cav had a mutiny during my dad's time,1920's. The wanted the same pay as the white guys and I think 4 were found guilty and hanged.
Peace out.
Rudy
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Post by 26th on Apr 4, 2008 17:34:05 GMT -5
Sorry
Maybe not the 26 but other Scouts at Fort McKinley in July 1924.
The ring leaders were sent to long term prison sentences. They never got equal anything out of this.
Rudy
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Post by legionnaire on Apr 4, 2008 17:40:01 GMT -5
The sad truth of a segregated Army. But when war broke out everything became equal except the pay I guess. ;D Reminds of the scene in Glory were the "colored" troops demand equal pay.
I wonder what unit it was? hope it was not the 57th PS.
Philip
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Post by VeeVee on Apr 4, 2008 18:28:25 GMT -5
Those guys were transferred to Corregidor when war broke out and given the chance to fight for country. Don't know what happened to them beyond that.
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Post by 79thfoot on Apr 5, 2008 6:22:03 GMT -5
Well, I do see the point and as I said, I would not think that a Cazadores or Nebraska Volunteer infantryman or British regular from 1762 would be appropriate. I think the greyness does come though from the idea that a) these were guys who, as a unit, served 'the other side' during the revolution and w/ ref to the hinted Kempeitai and Waffen SS re-enactors b) were infamous in history for abuse and atrocities committed either under orders from the Spanish or part of (sadly quite normal) power tripping. These past days thinking about it, I wonder if it really is too controversial a thing particularly for the generation of Fil-Ams who grew up in the States and never read Rizal's life or his books.
I don't know. I wouldn't mind talking to people about that bit of Philippine history, giving it the same twist that Selwyn does when he portrays a GC at events here. My cousins who grew up there don't know this about their roots, and I would think very few who grew up there do. Most are actually surprised when they hear about it, at least in my experience.
But then, unlike the Kempeitai or Waffen SS, the GC were pinoy not foreigners and some did turn to the revolution. Also, it's very easy to think of ourselves as separate entities now but back then, until characters like Elias and Simoun and ultimately Bonifacio started shouting it out, the Philippines was a part of Spain and, for all their treatment as colonials and peons, the Pinoys were subjects of the Spanish crown no less than the Americans were British until 1776-83. Being a GC I think makes the transition more effective than being a revolutionary from the outset - you have a 'road to damascus' transformation, a realization, a 'revolution' in mindset, rather than playing the rebel with a cause from the start.
By the way, lovely movie Glory - and lovely scene! I really wish Last Samurai had been handled as deftly. By the way, yet another side trip, did you know that Tom Cruise's character there was based on Fred Ward of the Ever Victorious Army during the Taiping Rebellion in China? What does that have to do with anything one may ask - well, Fred Ward's bodyguards were a rough bunch of Pinoy sailors nicknamed the 'Manilamen'. That's yet another Pinoy soldier impression I'd love to do - indeed I have the summer uniform kicking away somewhere.
Well, I'm truly sorry if this has been too controversial, though I'm thankful for all the thoughts and advice. Really didn't mean to stir up a hornets nest here.
Humbly yours, Tom
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Post by legionnaire on Apr 5, 2008 14:17:07 GMT -5
Hi Tom,
Since this is a discussion forum were topics like these are the best place to discuss it here this is no huge problem . Presenting it for the uneducated Filipino and American public who have very little knowledge and probably very vague ideas about Philippine history, then representing the GC who joined the revolution with a Philippine c-o-c-k-ade as a symbol hopefully would help make it easier to explain the impression. It's just that we need more Pinoys presenting tribute to our Heroes and freedom fighters, considering there are very few of us here who make this thankless effort.
There are others here who might have better info on your suggestions to give some other identity that you are representing the GC who joined the revolution. Ingat.
Philip
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Post by 79thfoot on Apr 6, 2008 7:16:05 GMT -5
Hi guys,
Well, I asked around with the BnK group and they confirmed one person in particular who would actually be a great person to re-enact - Manuel Sityar, a Spanish mestizo lieutenant in the Guardia Civil who went over to the revolutionary side and eventually became the commandant of General Antonio Luna's military academy in 1898.
Hopefully will be able to post pics before I leave. :-)
Tom
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Post by 79thfoot on Apr 6, 2008 7:32:30 GMT -5
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Post by dimasalang on Apr 8, 2008 12:15:27 GMT -5
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Post by legionnaire on Apr 8, 2008 14:47:44 GMT -5
What's unique is they are a GC "Zurdo" (kaliweteng kamay)unit. ;D
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agmohio
New Member
?Viva Espa?a!
Posts: 37
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Post by agmohio on Apr 9, 2008 13:58:09 GMT -5
Hello Tom and dimasalang, Thanks for sharing these photos. The soldiers in Tom's first photo with the 'First Prisoners' are unquestionably Guardia Civil Veterana and not regular Civil Guards. Their collar tabs (sardinetas) are clearly visible. This is a great photo that I had not seen before. Thanks for the enlargement, dimasalang. It was very helpful. Do you know who holds the copyright to this photo or is it Public Domain? I sure would like to get a large, clear copy of it for the book. In Tom's second photo, the body guard are, if fact, all wearing ex-Civil Guard uniforms. Keep up the good work. I will add any new information I find here, also. ¡Viva España! Bill
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Post by RayAdillO on Apr 10, 2008 4:14:14 GMT -5
Being a GC I think makes the transition more effective than being a revolutionary from the outset - you have a 'road to damascus' transformation, a realization, a 'revolution' in mindset, rather than playing the rebel with a cause from the start. I'm nationalistic for "a mi patria Filipinas" myself, and yet I love the GC. At least they looked smart and menacing, not like the unimpressive and bumbling Philippine policemen we have today. They were the guys who mostly kept the peace and order situation in check. After all, the line between a common bandit, thief or murderer to that of a local nationalist revolutionary isn't always so obvious. The Guardia Civil suffers a bad press today largely because most history teachers and writers in the Philippines tend to be leftists. As far as they are concerned, any state police or military is the eqiuvalent of the SS and Gestapo. Yet it is arguable that for most of the almost 400 year history of Spanish Philippines, it had been an era that was generally peaceful, thanks in no small measure to the GC. Heck, if I had it my way, I'd reinstitute the Guardia Civil back to the Philippines to replace the worthless Philippine National Police, or at least the provincial police. It would be nice to have them operate on hoseback. I'd even have them wear that black pigskin tricorn hat which they use in Spain, with white canvas covers of course. ;D Yes I've heard about the "Manilamen". I think I read somewhere that General "Chinese" Gordon had a complement of such "Spanish Malays" who served as the main shock troops of his "Ever Victorious Army". Who you know what manner of uniform they wore? Please do share with us if yes
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Post by 79thfoot on Apr 14, 2008 5:57:56 GMT -5
Hello everyone! Checking in from Monrovia CA! :-) I brought two GC uniforms, one based on the Osprey photograph and the other based on Bill's uniform (GCV with collar sardinetas) and I've got two cockades, one the red-yellow-red of Spain and the other the red-white-blue of the Philippine Revolutionary forces. Interestingly enough, I converted the latter costume out of a Pinoy security guard uniform w/c strangely enough has virtually the same cut as the GC. I'll try and get photos this week before heading off to New Orleans. The Osprey Taiping Rebellion book has the Manilaman info. There's what seems to be a photo of the Manilamen - at least they look Pinoy to me. In any case this would be the look of the EVA and bodyguard unit. According to Osprey, the EVA wore blue long sleeved coats quite similar to the GC (I actually plan on getting another Sikyu - ie. security guard - uniform for this when I get back) buttoned with 5 brass buttons up front with red cuffs and collar and green shoulder straps and turban. White webbing used for black cartridge box. Summer uniforms were white with brown webbing IIRC. Blanket rolls of various gaudy colours were worn. Weapons were apparently Enfield rifled muskets. I'm afraid I don't have the book with me now so this is all from memory. Apparently it was the EVA's first commander (who's been quite overshadowed by the charismatic Gordon) the American Fred Ward who first enlisted the manilamen - IIRC their leader was a tough sailor named Vicente Macanaya. They served as his personal bodyguard and as the shock troops of the army. The Manilaman I'll be doing at the PyrateCon will be from an earlier era - the 1815 Louisiana Manilamen of 'Manila Village' at St.Malo/lake Borgne. Apparently they should be in simple cast off sailors garb or semi-Indian fashion with a Baratarian pirate's red shirt. My impression will have a salakot (would these have been in fashion in the 18th/19th centuries? Filipino Heritage seems to think so) over a purplish batik style bandana (w/c I got in Palawan), a red piratey sash and a pilfered jacket and bonnet (and probably also a plaid as a blanket roll) from an unfortunate (and probably deceased) 93rd Argyll & Sutherland Highlander. I plan to visit the Chalmette (actual site of the 1815 Battle of New Orleans) Battlefield thus attired and have a few pics there too! Sorry to run the thread off track a bit Agmohio - perhaps Mr.Dumindin can let you know about the photo copyright status? Salutes, Tom
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Post by dimasalang on Apr 14, 2008 14:58:36 GMT -5
Wow... Talk about learning something new everyday. I have always heard of the Manilamen, but I have never heard of these fellows who recruited the Manilamen. I never knew the Manilamen were used in this fashion. Thanks for sharing guys! This has sparked a new avenue of interest for me. Harper's Weekly, March 31, 1883 - Visit to Manilamen, St. Malo
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Post by 79thfoot on Apr 26, 2008 3:26:41 GMT -5
It's one of the lesser known historical tales - well, how many people even know about the Taiping rebellion, much less the Manilamen? :-)
Will make a separate Manilamen post so this thread doesn't go off track.
Salutes, Tom
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