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Post by beancent on Sept 30, 2007 14:06:26 GMT -5
Let us honor our fallen soldiers... So much for "Manifest Destiny"... Anyway those were the times. Please feel free to comment and add pics....  MALABON  MALABON a dead and bloodied soldier  MALABON - Notice the dead soldier on the foreground probably an officer? he's wearing a chaleco and a waistcoat. Notice the spent catridges on the ground.   Dead Juramentados. The head is usually severed because it has been a strategy of the Americans to sew the head on a pig's carcass to discourage muslims. Notice the "barong"... and the cloth bands that were tied tightly around the torso to lessen blood loss.  In the trenches... Notice the wounds and bullet holes. The soldier on the foreground had his face shattered.  On the fields... Notice the dead soldier with a mangled arm probably caused by a high caliber round. Probably a springfield .45-70?  [img src="http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd219/beancent/Filipino%20Casualties/deads3.jpg ![]() "][/img]      ![]() [/img]http://i223.photobucket.com/albums/dd219/beancent/Filipino%20Casualties/611-4.jpg The aftermath of the Battle of Bagbag (now a part of Quezon City). They tried to hold the line... in vain. History books say that Bagbag fell because Gen. Luna wuthdrew his troops armed with Mausers in retaliation to Gen. Mascardo's insubordination...  ?? |
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Post by VeeVee on Sept 30, 2007 17:35:02 GMT -5
It's kind of a morbid group of photos to focus on though...
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Post by beancent on Sept 30, 2007 23:56:08 GMT -5
yes, kind of. hope you're not offended or anything. just want to honor our fallen soldiers and to share the ugly side of the war.  |
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Post by legionnaire on Oct 1, 2007 2:03:14 GMT -5
How do we honor fallen soldiers, by showing a collection of images of slain distorted bodies? Describing in detail how their body parts were blown away? It's kinda sick way by using shock value and translating this into honoring them?
I'm sorry but what you are showing are shocking photos which is not how you are suppose to remenber their sacrifice. It's just like showing piles of holocost victims bodies just after they were discovered by the liberating allies.
What if that was a photo of your grandfather's corpse with his head blown to pieces? Is that how you want to remenber and honor him?
When they keep showing the frame by frame film images of JKF's head being blown to bits during his motorcade in Dallas. Is that how you honor a great US President?
Yes this is the shocking and horrific reality of war we should be reminded of the inhumaity and maddness of man, It only makes you more hatefull who did the butchery.
The 9/11 victims such as the Firemen were honor by showing their heroic deeds, just like those on board American Airlines who fought back the hijackers and the battle cry was "Let's Roll!" They don't focus their mangle unrecognizable body parts in the crash site as a way to honor them.
Philip
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Post by RayAdillO on Oct 1, 2007 3:46:22 GMT -5
beancent,
I thank you for posting these images of Filipino soldiers who have fought and died in battle. or as the old 19th century term for it goes, pictures of men who have been "hors le combat"!
At this point, i'd like to say something which is a bit off thread but nevertheless needs elaboration..................
Actually, the principal reason why some "politcal activists" have a highly negative view of the reenactment community is their claim that reenactors tend to "sanitize" the experience of war to the level of a "fashion show". I dont' share this opinion, even as I know there will always be some reenactors who might be like that.
But the point is, WAR IS HELL, and I have never encountered a reenactor who denies that fact, or purposely intends to trivialize the human suffering and misery of armed conflict.
Reenactment is a voluntary service offered by private citizens precisely to ENGAGE the public memory towards an all too human tragedy that is war; knowing full and well that the public generally tends to take peace for granted and be forgetful of the sacrifices of soldiers and civilians alike to win the peace.
You see, that's why war keeps happening....BECAUSE PEOPLE FORGET.
WAR DOES NOT HAPPEN BECAUSE OF REENACTORS.
Reenactments and reenactment impressions are not meant to provide the full bloody slaughter and barbarous experience of battle. WE CANNOT PROVIDE TO THE PUBLIC THE WHOLE DAMMED THING, UNLESS WE BEGIN USING LIVE ROUNDS OF AMMUNITON AND START KILLING OURSELVES!
How it works is.....
1. the public sees reenactors and reenactments.
2. they begin to be aware that this and that actually happened.
3. and thus the public's interest is sparked to read more on the history of it all.
I rather resent the implication that reenactors are "trivializers" of war.
Ray, O.
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Post by RayAdillO on Oct 1, 2007 4:25:17 GMT -5
These "juramentados" should NEVER be mistaken as legitimate Filipino soldiers, the pictures of their carcasses shouldn't be grouped together with heroes who have died in "the bed of honor". "Juramentados" are assasins, not soldiers. There is nothing honorable or brave about them. They have to be heavily doped with "hashish" just to ovecome their own cowardice to be able to run amuck on a killing spree. I don't know why some Filipino historians keep trying to make them out as "Filipino heroes". Even being buried with a pig is too good for them. ;D |
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Post by RayAdillO on Oct 1, 2007 5:21:21 GMT -5
The aftermath of the Battle of Bagbag (now a part of Quezon City). They tried to hold the line... in vain. History books say that Bagbag fell because Gen. Luna wuthdrew his troops armed with Mausers in retaliation to Gen. Mascardo's insubordination... ?? Ostensibly, yes....the "Battle for Bagbag River" was "lost" because General Antonio Luna came back too late with his seasoned troops, after spending too much time trying to discipline Tomas Mascardo for the second time since Marscardo's insubordination during the "Battle for Manila". But in retrospect, the Filipino position at Bagbag was already hopeless anyway. It's only usefulness was to delay the American advance into Malolos which was then the capital of the Philippine Republic; Malolos was already doomed to eventually fall, there was no way the meager resources of the Filipino army was going to deny the muscular U.S. Army festooned with weapons any fixed position out in the open plain. In fact, had the Filipino line in Bagbag held on longer, Aguinaldo would have stayed put in Malolos, allowing the other two American pincer columns to complete their envelopment of the area and trap the whole Filipino Army; including Aguinaldo and the entire Philippine insurgent government. The cream of the whole Philippine army would have been surrounded and starved into submission in one giant swoop. Antonio Luna knew that. That's why he preferred the strategy of moving the bulk of the Filipino forces into the mountain ranges of northern and eastern central Luzon where it could conduct a protracted guerilla campaign. So, for Luna, the priority would be to see to it that Mascardo would never disobey his orders again. He knew that the army has to be well coordinated if it was going to fight a guerilla war successfully. Holding a hopeless position and expending too much resources defending it simply makes no sense. But of course, some Filipino historians don't see that. That's why they still blame General Luna for the Bagbag fiasco which never was. The results of Bagbag were demoralizing, but at least the Filipino forces were merely scattered up rather than completely anihilated by the American forces, thus allowing it to be able to regroup later on, with it's military capabilities largely intact. The reason the Filipino army never successfully regrouped after the battle was that Luna was murdered, and so factionalism destroyed any further hopes of offering organized ressistance. That's what made a relatively minor defeat in Bagbag turn into a major triumph for the American forces. |
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Post by RayAdillO on Oct 1, 2007 7:10:20 GMT -5
Very interesting photo......
Yes, the poor guy in the foreground could very well be an officer. His uniform seems of higher quality, less "raggedy'' than his equally dead comarade in the background. He wore an undershirt and not really a "chaleco", now that too signifies someone of means (at least by Filipino standards of 1898). He also seems to be wearing light colored shoes, someone whose family may have had some money?; contrast that with the average Filipino soldier who went barefoot.
Note that his uniform also seems to have had shoulder boards at one time, as you can see the flat impression. But what gives it away is that fact that his uniform is unbuttoned........the likelihood of our blue and khaki clad onlookers having "rifled" through his inner pockets for valuables and other souvenirs, including his shoulder insignia.
In fact, you can't even see any buttons on his uniform anymore, why?.......being an officer, he would have been wearing brass insignia buttons; a favorite trophy for souvenir hungry G.I.s of any generation.
Conclusion?......Yes, definitely an officer and a gentleman. May his brave soul rest in peace.
Well, beancent, do you think my photo analysis could be accurate?
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Post by beancent on Oct 1, 2007 10:15:22 GMT -5
Thanks for the comment on the pics i've posted. Very well said indeed. But i'm really sorry to know that some people were offended by the somewhat "morbid' pics of fallen filipino soldiers. I've posted them because filipino casualties are seldom shown nor discussed. And as a student of history (like most of us), I just wanted to share some pictures and also to be able to learn by receiving responses as to the accuracy and detail of the photos.
As to the pics with explanation phrases like "mangled arm", 'shattered face' etc., I took notice of this because it corroborates the type of ammunition used at that time. I'm not playing psycho or anything butinstead, i'm just being objective. i believe that to be able to explain history one must be able to be a liitle bit detached and unbiased and at the same time being a little sensitive on what the "two parties" may feel.
But I would like to state that:
1. I would not want to see my grandfather's head blown off. In fact he almost did. He was almost buried when a shell exploded near him. This happened in the Abucay Line, Bataan. He was acting platoon leader of 3rd pltn., L coy, 1st Bn, 41st Rgt, 41st ID, USAFFE. He lived a happy life. He died in 1993.
2. JFK's assasination was played over and over again in discovery chnl (with slow mo). It also has a movie.
3. The planes crashing in the WTO was played over and over again.
4. People, especially us filipinos must not hate the Americans and the US. I love the west. I love America. Without the US I wonder what life would be.
Why am I saying this? We must learn and face the facts. how can a nation move towards the future when it does not know about its past? People must know so it won't happen again.
Having said this, i would like to apologize to those members who were offended or somewhat disgusted by the photos. You're comments were very well taken into consideration.
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Post by beancent on Oct 1, 2007 10:55:59 GMT -5
Rayadillo,
I'm not being to sentimental, am I? ;D
Anyway, as to the photos of juramentados, the pics were disorganized when i posted them. you're right they are not soldados, they are the turn of the century terrorists... and they suffered the "shock and awe" of our brave PC's. Have you read Jungle Patrol by Vic Hurley? It's posted on the net. there was one account wherein a juramentado charged a PC gauntlet and was able to kill 4. Later on, they discovered that he was hit 5x by a .45 on the neck, face and torso including 4 .30-06's in the body if i remember correctly. They're sick.
As to the Battle of Bagbag. Yes. most historians only see the fight between mascardo and luna and the insult regarding "man's anatomy" but they seldom see the military side of it. The Battle of Bagbag is already lost from the start. The north is a very strategic position and it was made into good use by the japs in wwII. Even the late T. Agoncillo (and Ambeth Ocampo) argued that there is no need for guerilla warfare at that time. What? I can't understand why they think the Battle can still be won on the conventional battlefield.
In my opinion, the war was lost when: american ground forces arrived and was able to set up positons up to Sta. Mesa to the east.
May ask about your opinion on this?
As to the dead Filipino officer in Malabon: You have a sharp eye Senor! I wasn't able to notice the buttons that were removed as if he was stripped of personal effects. The shoulder boards that were removed! Yes I can see the flattened portion (or the contrast in color between the bottom of the shoulder boards with the rest of the tunic). Can you comment on the "framed" photo in the trenches with regards to the uniform?
Thank you very much and Mabuhay!
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Post by VeeVee on Oct 1, 2007 16:23:00 GMT -5
Having said this, i would like to apologize to those members who were offended or somewhat disgusted by the photos. You're comments were very well taken into consideration. Naa it's all cool. It's just that the pictures of the casualties are depressing and stripped of any dignity. It would not be my choice choice way of honoring our fallen forefathers. But that's just me. But as long as there's good discussion and educational value that can be gotten out of it, carry on... I'm always amazed by Ray's "photo-forensic" analysis  |
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Post by legionnaire on Oct 1, 2007 17:39:48 GMT -5
What was disturbing and made me wonder was WHY a gallery collection of more than a dozen images of slain Filipinos.
This reminded me of those throphy game kills by Hunters. Or outlaws killed and proudly displayed before the cameras by bounty hunters of the wild west! And these were patriotic freedom fighters and human beings at that.
One image would have been sufficient to show the point and not over do it. "A picture is worth a thousand words" as they say.
1. I would not want to see my grandfather's head blown off. In fact he almost did. He was almost buried when a shell exploded near him. This happened in the Abucay Line, Bataan. He was acting platoon leader of 3rd pltn., L coy, 1st Bn, 41st Rgt, 41st ID, USAFFE. He lived a happy life. He died in 1993.
Thank you for mentioning in this forum that you have a relative who was aWWII vet. You are truly lucky to have seen your Grandfather live a happy life. We should honor him.
2. JFK's assasination was played over and over again in discovery chnl (with slow mo). It also has a movie.
3. The planes crashing in the WTO was played over and over again.
These were replayed for obvious televison ratings by networks as "LATESTS NEWS!" As we all know the news media including the paparazzi are the last people to show respect for victims and their families rights and feelings. It is all for the money made out of it.
Philip
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Post by beancent on Oct 2, 2007 2:13:42 GMT -5
Thank you gentlemen. It's all good. I promise I will not post anymore of these "casualties of war". I just wonder why they were photograped in the first place. Those were the times and we should all be thankful that we live in a more civilized world. We salute our ancestors...
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Post by faustino on Oct 2, 2007 21:14:53 GMT -5
Let us honor our fallen soldiers... So much for "Manifest Destiny"... Anyway those were the times. Please feel free to comment and add pics.... It is a bit distasteful, but I understand what you are trying to say. BTW.... earlier you were asking about entrenchments.... I see at least 4 or 5 good examples of Filipino trenches in these photos. MALABON a dead and bloodied soldier[/img] hey Rayadillo.... is that a big canteen next to the fallen soldier? it looks like one of those large canteens covered with blanket wool that the Western Cowboys used to carry on their saddles. |
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Post by beancent on Oct 2, 2007 22:40:32 GMT -5
Yes it appears to be a flask but i'm not sure. But notice the item behind it... a rolled banig (straw mat).
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Post by RayAdillO on Oct 2, 2007 22:59:00 GMT -5
Let us honor our fallen soldiers... So much for "Manifest Destiny"... Anyway those were the times. Please feel free to comment and add pics.... It is a bit distasteful, but I understand what you are trying to say. BTW.... earlier you were asking about entrenchments.... I see at least 4 or 5 good examples of Filipino trenches in these photos. MALABON a dead and bloodied soldier [/img] hey Rayadillo.... is that a big canteen next to the fallen soldier? it looks like one of those large canteens covered with blanket wool that the Western Cowboys used to carry on their saddles. [/quote] Yes faustino, It could be a canteen. It would have helped if we could see some remnants of a strap. Nevertheless, a thing of that shape and size within the context of the picture's story can only be rationally interpreted as a canteen of the period. Otherwise, next to that "tube" it looks like a carbide cannon missing a wheel, you know...the type used to make noise at New Year's eve? ;D |
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Post by faustino on Oct 2, 2007 23:04:42 GMT -5
Yes it appears to be a flask but i'm not sure. But notice the item behind it... a rolled banig (straw mat). it looks like a muffler to a car ;D... but I know thats not it.... I'm thinking it might be some type of food storage container.... looks like it's made of metal, what else could it be?..... I know all ammo crates/ containers were made of wood or leather. |
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Post by faustino on Oct 2, 2007 23:47:56 GMT -5
aha! I know what the round (canteen looking) thing is.... it is a Spanish mess kit... I found an illustration of one and it is 9 inches wide, which is about right for the item we see in the photo.
when I figure out how to scan the illustration of the mess kit I'll post it in a new thread so we don't get too far off topic.
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macky
History Student
Posts: 63
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Post by macky on Oct 13, 2007 3:34:56 GMT -5
I know this is not the right pl;ace to inquire but I really have enought time our compitition in histo-research will start on monday so please is there anyone here knows about tiradores dela muertes uniform and equipment. If you know something kindly send me response on sumaquel@yahoo.com
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Post by kerwin on Jan 3, 2008 11:29:22 GMT -5
Nice pics. morbid but nice.
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