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Post by cannonmn on Jul 17, 2011 15:38:22 GMT -5
I need help with some initials(?) on a small Spanish bronze cannon barrel. Provenance: Complete cannon sent from US Army officer who captured it in the Philippines ca. 1901, to Sec. of War Elihu Root, then came down through family until I acquired it from them in 1980's. It came with a huge, heavy tropical hardwood carriage, painted gray, with four big "Fred Flintstone" solid wood wheels. The carriage is now in storage and unfortunately I don't have a good photo to post here, but it wouldn't add any to the discussion. My question, which has bugged me for about 25 years: What's the meaning of the large, engraved initials "A.M.G." on top of the barrel? Note that the letters are inverted compared to the "normal" cannon markings which include the weight, 73 3/4 Spanish pounds, and the mark for "Real" (Royal) which is an engraved "R." Note that the letter "A" has a "v" for the cross-stroke. There are no other marks on the barrel. The piece is typical of small Spanish cannon cast in the Philippines for the Spanish monarchy. Tube probably dates from the18th or early 19th C. Dimensions of barrel: Overall length about 30 inches. Weight about 80 lbs. Bore: 2 inches ("one pounder" size) Breech diameter: 5.5 inches The barrel is chambered so it technically a howitzer. The chamber at the rear of the bore is about 1.5 in. diameter x 2 in. deep. One possibility I had considered is that the "A.M.G." are the initials of the founder. Spanish cannon with only initials of the founder are unknown so I don't place much store in that theory. Also A.M.G. could be the initials of an Insurrecto officer who had this cannon in his unit. There are many Insurrecto officers whose names are documented in US military reports you can find on Google Books, but only their first and last names are given, and many have first and last initials A and G respectively. Was there any Insurrecto military unit that had the abbreviation "A.M.G.?" What do you think the "A.M.G." stands for? I have two photos but was not successful in posting them even though I used the "image" icon and already have url's, so please look at the similar thread I posted on the Ebay Antiques forum which has photos posted. forums.ebay.com/db2/topic/Antiques/Help-With-Inscription/5200010577 -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Or, can you tell me where to find the Order of Battle for the Filipino Insurrectionist Army? What I'd like to see is a list of all of the various units which comprised that Army. It would also be nice to have a list of the commanders of those units, perhaps down to the company level. If they are in Tagalog, that's fine. Do such documents exist?
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Post by cannonmn on Jul 17, 2011 20:32:36 GMT -5
The cannon came into Root's possession about 1901, and was displayed in the front hall at his summer home in Clinton, NY. Root died in 1937, passing the home and contents to his heirs. In 1945 a young heir discovered that the cannon was loaded to within an inch of the muzzle. Plundering the cannon yielded, in order from muzzle to breech, -a coconut fiber wad -double handful of broken glass -small rocks and nails -another coconut fiber wad -3 cups of serpentine gunpowder
For over 40 years, the cannon had been fully loaded with a lethal, although short-range, anti-personnel round. Fortunately none of the many visitors to Root's home had used the open vent of the cannon for an ash tray.
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Post by cannonmn on Jul 19, 2011 14:13:20 GMT -5
Hello.........Is anybody home?
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Post by VeeVee on Jul 19, 2011 21:57:28 GMT -5
Congratulations on owning such a rare historical piece. You ask tough questions though. Maybe someone knowledgeable will see your info and chime in. Most likely, everyone's just stumped.
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Post by cannonmn on Jul 20, 2011 9:12:47 GMT -5
Thanks, maybe I should break the question up into some parts that may be a little easier to find answers for. That method didn't occur to me when I first posted the question. I could use the answer to any of these questions:
1. Does the letter "A" with the "v" crossbar mean anything to anyone? Is that something you'd see in old Spanish or Tagalog writing? Latin? I ask because it certainly isn't common in English.
2. Does anyone know of a listing of units by unit name for the Insurrectionist (Philippine Liberation) army of Aguinaldo? I've seen references to certain named brigades, but maybe there's a comprehensive list somewhere?
3. Has anyone ever seen another artifact from the Insurrection with any type of Insurrectionist-unique markings on it? If so were they initials, names, numbers, or what? Maybe I should call West Point Museum, which had a lot of Insurrectionist material, including cannons, and ask them also.
Unfortunately many of their small Insurrectionist cannons shown in a "group photo" in the 1929 catalog of the West Point Museum seem to have been donated to the WWII scrap metal drives. I acquired a slightly larger Spanish cannon taken from Insurrectionists, which still had a West Point Museum property tag on it, and tracing it back turned up the facts that it had been donated for scrap during WWII, but obviously sold to a collector by the scrap yard instead of being melted down. That one only has the Spanish weight marking on it, in addition to the screwed-on brass plaque with the West Point catalog number cast into it. Unfortunately the carriage shown under that other tube in the 1929 catalog photo was lost during the scrapping process, probably just trashed since it was wooden.
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Post by 79thfoot on Jul 21, 2011 2:28:57 GMT -5
To the second question, I believe there is a relatively comprehensive list of units in Filipino Heritage No.8, the one on the Revolution. I used to have access to it but not now - perhaps someone in the Philippines could provide a list for you?
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Post by cannonmn on Jul 21, 2011 6:42:20 GMT -5
Thanks. Along those lines I've tried to get onto FilipinoForum.net, registering per their instructions, and the registration was accepted. However I never got a confirmation email to complete registration, and there doesn't seem to be any way to contact the administrators there. Is anyone else here also a member of the other forum, who could contact the administrator for me? I registered there with same name I use here.
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Post by VeeVee on Jul 21, 2011 10:40:20 GMT -5
I thought that forum hasn't been active for a while. I could be wrong. Could Bill Combs know some answers through his collecting and research over the years? Maybe he could point you to someone who might know. His website: www.agmohio.com/losrayadillos.htm
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Post by cannonmn on Jul 21, 2011 13:10:50 GMT -5
Thanks very much for the website, I had no idea it existed. It does seem that if anyone would be familiar with markings on military equipment of that time and in that area, he would be one of them. I will ask Mr. C to look at this topic.
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Post by cannonmn on Jul 21, 2011 21:04:15 GMT -5
While I'm waiting for Mr. Combs' reply, please give me an opinion on this.
I am still puzzled by the big letters "A.M.G" engraved on the cannon. This is only the second cannon I know of, captured from Filipino Insurgents, which has engraving on it that is different from what the Spanish had engraved on it when it was made.
That is, except for "capture inscriptions" that is, since I've seen several with small inscriptions engraved on top of the gun, as to when they were captured, by what US Army unit captured, and the location.
The other one with a non-standard inscription is in the West Point catalog, and bears the engraved Latin words "Ave Maria Gratia Plena."
That got me thinking that mine might also have a Latin saying, perhaps of a religious nature, abbreviated by "A.M.G." I went off searching for such Latin phrases and found only one that would fit those initials: "Ad Majorem Gloriam" which apparently means "For the Greater Glory."
What do you think?
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Post by VeeVee on Jul 21, 2011 23:00:33 GMT -5
You might be on to something. Very plausible indeed!
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Post by cannonmn on Jul 22, 2011 7:25:19 GMT -5
Thanks. Another source I checked over pretty thoroughly was one I've mentioned before, McFarland, Earl, CATALOG OF THE ORDNANCE MUSEUM, United States Military Academy, West Point, NY, USMAPO, 1929. There are hundreds of objects listed, from the Philippine Insurrection. Some are Spanish, some are Moro, and some are Filipino. I have yet to go though the small arms section but some of the objects have rather detailed descriptions down to the soldier, officer, Datu, or Sultan who had owned them.
Here's just one example, pp. 264: No. 3345-Bolo, surrendered May 15, 1901 by Quintin Fasavn, a 2nd LT of reserves, Castellions Battalion and a resident of San Antonio a Baliono of Binan, P.I. (footnote: Presented to USMA by Maj. Gen. Charles Dudley Rhodes , 6th Cavalry, US Army, USMA class of 1889.)
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Post by cannonmn on Jul 22, 2011 14:19:09 GMT -5
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Post by cannonmn on Jul 23, 2011 3:55:10 GMT -5
That looks like the end of the research project; all information I have points to the cannon having been owned by General Guevara. From the article linked above, this quote is interesting: He must have acquired the cannon while on that duty, ca. 1898.
The fact that he eventually surrendered to US General Frederick Dent Grant in 1902 is another important clue. The Grant and Root families were close friends and it appears that Gen. Grant must have given this cannon to Root. Anyway, there are many clues all pointing in the same direction now, so I have the answer.
The US Military Academy, West Point Museum, received Guevara's personal flag which was presented to them by Gen. Grant about 1902. I've asked the museum if they still have it, and if so to please send me a photo.
I've just purchased the first two of the three reference books mentioned in the article linked in the post above, so perhaps a bit more information will come from those.
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Post by cannonmn on Jul 25, 2011 7:56:21 GMT -5
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Post by cannonmn on Jul 25, 2011 11:45:11 GMT -5
The West Point museum got right back to me on Gen, Guevara's flag. I was glad they still had it!
The "flag," is actually guidon-style, and was re-catalogued as WPM#2884. Unfortunately it has not been photographed but it approximately 2' 3" (hoist) x 5' 3" (fly) and is fork-tailed. It is made of cotton, the upper half being blue, the lower half is red.
(Description courtesy of West Point museum.)
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Post by VeeVee on Jul 25, 2011 11:57:00 GMT -5
Wow good research job. Congratulations. You really scoured resources for information. Thanks for sharing your thought process. Everything does seem to point to it being Guevera's.
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Post by mike orega on Nov 6, 2017 13:12:37 GMT -5
Mr.cannonmn,I also have a bronze cannon with engravings AMG 1-8cc call me at 0917 7697844 WOR landline 806-8068...mike ortega
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