Question re: wearing khaki and wool service shirt

[mish]

Was there any official rule/regulation (aside from the onset of the 'colder' months) as to when one or the other may be worn? Did being an enlisted man or an officer matter as to the applicabiility of these rules?

Was the "mixing" (wool shirt + khaki trousers) evident in a lot of pictures a well-established (official?) practice or some sort of adaptation (supply issues, expedience, etc)?

[VeeVee]

Here are some references:

31st Infantry


PS artillery


45th Infantry PS


PS combat engineers


31st Infantry in Intramuros (officer in khaki, enlisted intrantrymen in OD)



--------------
From the book Odyssey of a Philippine Scout by Maj. Arthur Kendal Whitehead

As the weather cooled, woolen shirts replaced the khaki worn during the hot season. Otherwise the uniform remained the same the year round; khaki breeches, boots, and campaign hat, which was exchanged for a steel helmet in the field. The Scout wore an ammunition belt with suspenders, on which was attached his first aid packet, a pouch holding two pistol clips of .45 ammunition and his pistol holster. In his pistol was a third clip of ammunition. The rifle ammunition pouches on his belt were filled with eight-round clips for the M-1 rifle. Rifle ammunition was ball, except for one clip of armor-piercing and one of tracer. The gas mask hung on his left side.

He rode the standard US Army McClellan saddle. His bridle was the standard military bit and bridoon (bit refers to the curb, bridoon to the snaffle) which requires a double headstall and two sets of reins. In the field, a leather halter was worn beneath the bridle, a halter shank of hemp rope snapped to the halter ring, the free end passed over the animal's neck and tied in a knot similar to a hangman's. On the pommel of the saddle was strapped a nosebag, with a feeding of oats and a raincoat. The cantell roll, made up of a woolen blanket, mosquito bar and shelter half was strapped behind the saddle. In the cantel bags were carried a set of horseshoes , and nails, a grooming kit and tent pegs and ropes, a mess kit, emergency rations, toilet articles, a towel, and anything else a trooper can cram into them. On the outside of the near cantel bag was strapped his canteen cover with canteen and cup. The boot for his rifle was hung on the near side beneath the skirt at an angle; the rifle was inserted muzzle first with the butt up and forward.

[victoree]

Once again, the standard WW2 combat shirt is not gonna work for this one, either. The shirt will be just made just like the khaki one. Gas flaps and convertible collars came out after the white troops were in the camps.

Martin

[mish]

Thanks, VeeVee, spot on.

[VeeVee]

Hi Martin, what does a convertible and non-convertible collars look like? I'm comparing original shirts with and without gas flaps and the collars look about the same. Where can one buy a pre-war shirt? Thanks.

[victoree]

While this is an example of an officers shirt. This is the way M1937 shirts would look in the collar area.

www.atthefront.com/us_uni_off_shirt_det.jpg

This is the combat shirt that came out in 1942. The collar looks like a D i c k i e s shirt.

www.atthefront.com/us_uni_EM_shirt_det.jpg

The same goes with Khaki shirts.

WW2 Impressions is the only vendor that seems to carry them. They are out right now.

There is an earlier version, that may have been, in service at this same time. No one repros them. They have a built in elbow reenforcement.

Martin

[mish]

More references to the structured/stand up collar detail would be appreciated.

Also, is this detail time-bound/linear, i.e., with the appearance of the later versions did this mean that the earlier, structured/stand-up detail officially went out of production?

This is a bit confusing because I've seen original khaki officer shirts with 1945 QM markings still indicating that the shirts were "Stand-up."

Collar:






Another collar shot:






QM markings near hem:






Whole shirt, front:






Edit: Added pics. Thanks goes to Filipino Airsoft's jabidah for taking the pics. I played lights person.

[VeeVee]

Cool. Thanks Martin.

[victoree]

They made the "earlier" pattern shirts through out the war. The "combat" pattern came out in 1942 with the gas flap. The gas flap was often removed by soldiers, especially in the post war years, where most of ours come from.

Most officers shirts retained the older stand up or structured collar. There comes some confusion added to the mix as in the post war years, many combat shirts were converted to match the 1946 enlisted pattern and epaulettes were added. You will see some of those show up in collections.

The newer "combat shirt" is as much out of the 1941-42 period, that most of us do, as the M1943 field uniform's.

Martin

[mish]

Added pics to earlier post. Hope they show up. I mounted them on a hobby webserver at home.

[victoree]

They went back to the stand up collar in the post war shirts. That shirt, would become the standard for all ranks, in 1946.

Martin

[indiosbravos]

Thanks for the info Martin.

Lawrence

[mish]

Thanks, victoree.

Again, a request for more sources re: this issue, inclusive of:

- "Brick and mortar" books (ISBN info appreciated), journals, magazines, etc;
- Online sources/URLs
- Other miscellaneous

Thanks.

[victoree]

The PS reenactors have documentation on this from the first response.

It isn't common in the wartime photos. Khaki shirts seem to be the norm for the war.

What is your impression of?

Martin

[mish]

You seem to have deleted the questioning smiley? =)

Anyway, here's an explanation: I posed a question about proper wear of Khakis and ODs/Serges/Mustards. The thread spun into a discussion of the development of "combat jackets" and the "stand-up/structured" collars.

I've no doubt that everyone of us here is thankful for your input, gleaned from more than three decades of reenacting. But that's not the point of the request. What I'm asking for is brick and mortar or online sources to back up the information you provided. The earlier posts are general histories/narratives with nuggets of information we can obviously jump on - that's a given. What I'm asking is if there are any other sources out there, such as books on the development of US Army uniforms or some such, that we can all refer to when doing research on uniform finds. Modern technology affords me the means with which to do this on my own without any help, but since you're the in-house expert, I figure I'd go for a quickie fix.

You have a reputation on these boards as being a purist. I only ask that this approach be backed up by sources all of us can peruse at leisure. I'm sure you share the opinion that reenactors should NOT rely on forum posts as primary sources of information, right?

I'm doing a generic PS enlisted man/infantry impression (no particular unit as yet), for both static display and "worn."

Again, thanks in advance.

[victoree]

I have no admin powers here. I am a member just the same as you are, on this board.

This wearing of the wool shirt seems to be a Philippines issue. They don't do it in Hawaii or Panama at this time (I have an interest in Panama, cause I was stationed there).

Now what makes this even more difficult. The New Mexico Coastal Artillerymen, that were sent in 1941, are doing the same thing in the desert training. This would be before they ever got to the Philippines.

I would say that it is a local command directive. The problem becomes one of, things that predated 1942, are available to us in photos, or accounts. They burned or lost most records to the Japanese. This is a strange circumstance. The US is usually the one that is on top. Records and orders don't have to be destroyed. They did in this conflict.

They sent out some rosters, awards and promotions from what I read. They did not send out alot of other documents. It may be lost to history.

There are a few books with uniform developments in them. They are not really gonna help with this situation. They can tell you when the items came out. They are not going to usually go beyond that, unless they can tie something from the ETO, in with it.
That is kind of sad.

www.amazon.com/G-I-COLLECTORS-GUIDE-European-Operations/dp/2913903878

www.amazon.com/U-S-Army-Uniforms-World-War/dp/0811725952/ref=pd_cp_b_2_img/104-5693827-6003950?pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-41&pf_rd_r=167VP2REF3H8562CAQ1D&pf_rd_t=201&pf_rd_p=413864201&pf_rd_i=2913903878

My thought on this one is, there are 5 photos and an officer account. It is something that was done. It is just part of the impression. The concern is that people use this as a short cut. The average reenactor goes, oh I have a wool shirt, I can use it. They never figure out if it is correct for the 1941-42 period. It may not be important to some. Once again, where does it stop and end? Where does one stop cutting corners? That is why I butted in with the shirt comment.

The answer lies in finding 1930's sources on uniforms. They started making changes in 1940 and 41. The Philippines reflects a myriad of these changes when you look at photos. I see things that should have been changed. Things that are brand new worn with older fashion items. It is a fascinating impression where photos are a prime source.

Can you explain this?

img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/boogiewoogie/53373186.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/boogiewoogie/53373218.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/boogiewoogie/53373188.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/boogiewoogie/53373249.jpg

img.photobucket.com/albums/v196/boogiewoogie/53373251.jpg

You may have read about this, but this is one of those things that your not going to find as an order or in most books.

Martin

[mish]

Ok, this is turning out to be really fascinating. I'll quit being the geek I actually am and stop pestering you about sources like I was still a young, bright-eyed History major on speed. Training... it's what I ascribe an almost-manic need for "sources" to. We were taught there's always a hierarchy to respect when you deal with historical sources - Primary always gets top nod, Secondary a grudging respect, and all else a quizzical look.

I'll let this go for a while, and follow your leads; but I won't be surprised at all if I find myself tapping out a paper about all this. I think I'm hooked. Hooked bad.

[victoree]

Yes, it is interesting. I have even read Band of Angels. It has alot of interesting stuff in it. I would not have known as much about Hospitals 1 and 2, if I had not. I had seen reference to the Easter Parade song that they made up in Death March. They had the full song in the Angels book. Trivial, yes, but still interesting to me.

I have grabbed any military photo of the 1941-42 time frame. There are ones that make no sense. One has Officers of the 59th CA wearing the standard National Arms on thier pith/tropical helmets. Another shows unit crests like enlisted men would have. These helmets were new to them. Did they interpret the insignia to be worn differently with in a short time? I don't know but I surmise they must have.

The beards were kind of interesting. Ramsey states in his book that they were worn as a sign of protest and kind of a yellow ribbon concept. They stopped shaving when the dependents left the Philippines. They said they would shave when they came back. Primary account of something just strange.

It is quite the ignored period by most. Who wants to do an impression of people that surrendered? I got that from some of my unit members when we decided to do this.

Martin

[mish]

Just a few additional details for comparison:

Post-'42 OD wool 'combat' shirts (Unofficially: "OD Wool Combat Shirt;" Official Nomenclature: "Shirt, Flannel, OD, Coat-Style, Special") also have two buttons concealed back of the collar - these buttons were used to attach the gas hood. AFAIK the OD wool repro 1943 combat shirt that ATF makes doesn't have this feature. I guess because they opted to reproduce the most "representative" type; also, the combat shirts have gusseted cuffs.

For a summary: (What's incorrect for an OD Wool shirt, PS '41-'42)

* Gas flap/associated buttons - 3 buttons down the shirt's inner right side
* Gussets on each cuff
* 2 buttons behind the collar



Edit: Incorrect tags