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Post by VeeVee on Jan 21, 2010 6:34:15 GMT -5
Based on information from this book... the Coast Artillery units were primarily armed with Springfield 1903 rifles. They didn't even qualify on the Garand. I've always wondered and couldn't find anything definitive, not even from Coast Artillery reenactors. So if one is to portray a 91st or 92nd CA Phil. Scout, the appropriate rifle would be a 1903. (or a .45 if a bugler, just extra info) corregidor.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=214
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Post by indiosbravos on Jan 24, 2010 9:28:30 GMT -5
Thanks Vic for the info....
No chance for me on getting '03 here....
Deact Garand selling here for > £1,500 and the '03 is much more expensive than Garand not to mention difficult to get hold on.
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Post by RayAdillO on Jan 24, 2010 9:39:36 GMT -5
I guess if you're cost artillery and the enemy gets to within rifle range, that means real trouble.
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Post by VeeVee on Jan 24, 2010 10:13:53 GMT -5
The CA were armed with machineguns, BAR's, and rifles. They're trained infantry as well, just not to the extent as real infantry units train.
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Post by RayAdillO on Jan 25, 2010 4:31:22 GMT -5
I don't doubt that one bit Victor, the coast artylleryman should know his basic infantry weapons before qualifying with the big guns.
It's just that I found it interesting that the PS coast artyllerymen were not issued the Garand like the those with the PS infantry regiments. Maybe through limited supply of the more modern rifle it was thought that they didn't need it as much as the infantry.
Well let's put it this way, the coast arty had 30 cal rifles too even if they were the M03s, but the infantry had no 10 inch guns.
But even as in the later war years, didn't they tend to issue U.S. gunners more with the M1 carbine than a full garand rifle?
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Post by VeeVee on Jan 25, 2010 6:36:35 GMT -5
I guess it was a simple matter of not enough to go around. So the actual "tip of the spear" infantry units were issued the M1's first. Even within the Philippine Division not everyone had garands. This is Col. Mel Rosen's transcribed in interview. He was an officer in the 24th Field Artillery PS. click for bigger
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Post by rickthelibrarian on Mar 6, 2010 9:01:16 GMT -5
You're right that there weren't enough M1s to go around. Only the "Regular" units got them (31st, 45th, 57th infantry regiments and 26th Cavalry). MacArthur did make a request in late 1941 for 84,000 more M1s, but with the state of the U.S. Army at that point, he was whistling in the wind. There were about 350,000 M1s by mid-1941 in the whole US Army. I believe about 500-600 by Pearl Harbor, but by that time, it was too late.
A little bit of trivia: The Philippine government bought a large quantity of M1917 rifles in the late 1930s (one source says as many as 220,000). The money realized from this sale was applied for M1 Garand research and production costs.
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Post by dimasalang on Mar 6, 2010 12:21:32 GMT -5
You're right that there weren't enough M1s to go around. Only the "Regular" units got them (31st, 45th, 57th infantry regiments and 26th Cavalry). MacArthur did make a request in late 1941 for 84,000 more M1s, but with the state of the U.S. Army at that point, he was whistling in the wind. There were about 350,000 M1s by mid-1941 in the whole US Army. I believe about 500-600 by Pearl Harbor, but by that time, it was too late. A little bit of trivia: The Philippine government bought a large quantity of M1917 rifles in the late 1930s (one source says as many as 220,000). The money realized from this sale was applied for M1 Garand research and production costs. Just to add...even in late Aug 1942 the Marines that landed and assaulted the beach on Guadalcanal were ill equipped with Garands...most of them had 1903s! Imagine assaulting a beach with a bolt action rifle! The US is already well in to the war in early 1943...and there were still not enough Garands to go around.
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Post by indiosbravos on Mar 6, 2010 14:27:18 GMT -5
I've seen from Discovery Channel that the reason some Marines was sporting an 03 was because they favoured it than the Garand.....
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Post by dimasalang on Mar 6, 2010 15:42:46 GMT -5
I've seen from Discovery Channel that the reason some Marines was sporting an 03 was because they favoured it than the Garand..... Thats not true at all. The Garand was proven superior by a long shot...not in accuracy, but for war. The Marines could never pick and choose....they were handed what was left over and given to them. The only unique weapon assigned to the Marines at that time was the Johnson LMG..and this is only because the designer was a former Marine still running experiments. The Johnson was short lived and lost out to the Garand. FYI, back then, the US Marines were the least equipped out of all branches....and even now, the US Marines are the least equipped and get left over military weaponry from other branches of the military..tanks and aircrafts included. US Marines are noted and take pride in getting the job done with "hand-me-down" weapons that are supposed obsolete. I know this well enough cause I known one all my life. Semper Fi devil dog
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Post by rickthelibrarian on Mar 8, 2010 17:52:37 GMT -5
Virtually all Marines that landed on Guadalcanal had M1903s. The first unit that came with M1s was the 164th U.S. Army) Infantry Regiment, which landed on Guadalcanal in October, 1942. It was said that if an M1 wasn't tied down, it would disappear! Nearly all the Marines kept their M1903s until they were re-equipped in Australia and New Zealand in early 1943.
There were a few Marines (mostly old salts) who preferred the M1903. You're right that most soldiers got what they were issued. However, in combat, things got changed around.
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Post by johnbryan on Mar 8, 2010 22:50:10 GMT -5
I've seen from Discovery Channel that the reason some Marines was sporting an 03 was because they favoured it than the Garand..... Thats not true at all. The Garand was proven superior by a long shot...not in accuracy, but for war. The Marines could never pick and choose....they were handed what was left over and given to them. The only unique weapon assigned to the Marines at that time was the Johnson LMG..and this is only because the designer was a former Marine still running experiments. The Johnson was short lived and lost out to the Garand. FYI, back then, the US Marines were the least equipped out of all branches....and even now, the US Marines are the least equipped and get left over military weaponry from other branches of the military..tanks and aircrafts included. US Marines are noted and take pride in getting the job done with "hand-me-down" weapons that are supposed obsolete. I know this well enough cause I known one all my life. Semper Fi devil dog The Johnson Rifle and light machine gun were excellent weapons. They were issued to Marine Raiders, but not to the rank and file, grunt Marines. They were also issued to the combined US and Canadian Army 1st Special Service Force (The Devil's Brigade) as well. Lastly, the Garand was every bit as accurate as the 03-A3 Springfield. You just needed to spend some time on the rifle range to get familiarized with it.
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Post by dimasalang on Mar 9, 2010 2:18:07 GMT -5
Thats not true at all. The Garand was proven superior by a long shot...not in accuracy, but for war. The Marines could never pick and choose....they were handed what was left over and given to them. The only unique weapon assigned to the Marines at that time was the Johnson LMG..and this is only because the designer was a former Marine still running experiments. The Johnson was short lived and lost out to the Garand. FYI, back then, the US Marines were the least equipped out of all branches....and even now, the US Marines are the least equipped and get left over military weaponry from other branches of the military..tanks and aircrafts included. US Marines are noted and take pride in getting the job done with "hand-me-down" weapons that are supposed obsolete. I know this well enough cause I known one all my life. Semper Fi devil dog The Johnson Rifle and light machine gun were excellent weapons. They were issued to Marine Raiders, but not to the rank and file, grunt Marines. They were also issued to the combined US and Canadian Army 1st Special Service Force (The Devil's Brigade) as well. Lastly, the Garand was every bit as accurate as the 03-A3 Springfield. You just needed to spend some time on the rifle range to get familiarized with it. I personally own all three...and these are not airsoft, they do go bang. And none of them are wallhangers or safe queens. My own experience with my own rifles; my 03-A3 is more accurate then my Garand. Bolt action rifles are "typically" more accurate then any recoil, gas, or piston driven rifles(of the same caliber and era). And my Garand is just a bit more accurate then my Johnson. That being said, my Johnny gun is still my favorite...just don't ask me how much I spent on her.
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Post by rickthelibrarian on Mar 10, 2010 13:38:06 GMT -5
Back in 1967, I saw a Johnson rifle for sale. I had just graduated from high school and I had enough graduation gift money to buy it. However, my mother,being a woman of little imagination, insisted I save the money for college. Like I said, NO imagination!! (And DON'T let me hear you young whipper-snappers tell me how many years that was until you were even BORN!!) I've never shot a Johnson, but have shot (and do possess) the other two. Although the M1903 remains my favorite (by a long shot) US military rifle, for shooting, I definitely prefer the M1 - it is easier on recoil (yes, I am a recoil "wimp") and the rear-mounted rear sight is much superior to that on the M1903.
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Post by VeeVee on Mar 10, 2010 18:40:26 GMT -5
Nice rifles Kev. What about a 1903 (not A3)? You need one for the collection. I know someone *cough* selling one... Rick that was 1...2..3... kidding!
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Post by dimasalang on Mar 10, 2010 19:33:38 GMT -5
Nice rifles Kev. What about a 1903 (not A3)? You need one for the collection. I know someone *cough* selling one... Rick that was 1...2..3... kidding! Thanks! Funny, a M1903 was actually next on my list...the hard part is finding one that is not a dog with matching(manufacture and color) parts and a good barrel, all the while keeping it within a decent price. Id prefer one that is original and complete, rather than piece one together or swap parts out. I always wanted a M1 Carbine too, but with the price of ammo these days and availability, Id much rather have a 1903 or another Garand. It amazes me how addictive these rifles are...they're like Lays Potato chips, you can never have just one! So Rick... how much for one of your M1903s with the POD stock?! ;D
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Post by frank on Mar 10, 2010 20:10:26 GMT -5
Nice rifles. Shot a Johnson several times in the Philippines. It belongs to the collection at the Villa Escudero Museum.
One of the grandsons brought it out one day and we shot ammo dated 1943 on the headstamp. Shot well. We then tried Phil. Arsenal ammo marked (RPA). It was smokier and had some failure to eject.
We did shoot it again several years later. Nice gun, works well but shows the years its been around.
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Post by rickthelibrarian on Mar 10, 2010 20:15:25 GMT -5
I only have one POD stock but I have a decent Rock Island M1903 which might be hitting the road, soon. If you want to PM me I can fill you in.
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Post by dimasalang on Mar 12, 2010 16:10:05 GMT -5
Sending a PM your way. ;D
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Post by rickthelibrarian on Mar 12, 2010 20:14:37 GMT -5
Received, and reply (both PM and email) sent.
RtL
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