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Post by johnbryan on Jul 15, 2009 18:32:55 GMT -5
Had the Japanese not attacked the Allies in 1941, what further reinforcements were the US planning to send to the Philippines. I have already read the Morton"Green Books", but their information ends with Pearl Harbor. I'm trying to see what the US would be sending to the PI well into 1942 in terms of ships, aircraft and army reinforcements
I read that MacArthur was planning to split the Philippine Division from a square division into two triangular divisions and would have needed the US 34th and 161st Infantry Regiments to be sent from the US to expand and bring his other units up to full wartime strength. I also recall reading that a third M-3 Stuart tank battalion and an M-3 Grant medium tank battalion was awaiting shipment to the PI.
Does anyone have any information or know of any online sites to help out?
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Post by oklahoma on Jul 16, 2009 10:45:26 GMT -5
hey john....would you enlighten me on the make up of the philippine division in regard to the "square division" versus the "triangle" configuration. i had always assumed that the phil division was a triangle division (45th and 57th phil scout regts, plus the 31st US) with supporting units, artlillery, QM, etc. my background is airforce, but i do have a smattering of knowledge of the other branches. as i get older, dependence on my memory is beginning to be a risky undertaking so i will defer to your expertise on this square vs triangle matter. stuff like this runs me crazy, but i like to think dealing with it helps to ward off senility. i do know that the 26th cavalry was an independent unit and cant count toward having 4 regiments to make a 2 brigade square division. please help me out here on this highy unimportant question. i always enjoy your posts. conjecturing with you might help to keep me out of the old folks home a bit longer.
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Post by johnbryan on Jul 16, 2009 14:09:56 GMT -5
Okay, let us both learn something. Taken from wiki:
"The Philippine Division, originally a named rather than numbered U.S. Infantry Division of World War II, was the core of the US Army's Philippine Department. On July 31, 1941, the division consisted of 10,473 troops, mostly enlisted Filipinos, known as the Philippine Scouts. All of the division's enlisted men, with the exception of the 31st Infantry Regiment, and various military police and headquarters troops, were Philippine Scouts.
In October 1941, as part of the US Army Forces Far East, plans were made to "triangularize" the division. The 34th Infantry(and 161st Infantry) was detached from the 8th Infantry and 41st NG Division and moved to a port of embarkation in December 1941, along with two battalions of 105mm field artillery. The Philippine Division was to have two complete U.S. regimental combat teams in place by January 1942 to provide General Douglas MacArthur with a modern, trained mobile reaction force, while freeing up Philippine Scouts for rounding out other units. The outbreak of war in December 1941, however, isolated the Philippines and nullified implementation of the plan."
They left out the bit about the US161st Infantry also shipping over to bring the units up to full, wartime strength. In short, a "triangular division" eliminated the field artillery and engineer regiments in favor of 4 field artillery battalions- 3 light artillery battalions, armed with 105mm howitizers and one medium battalion armed with 155mm guns. The Engineer regiment was replaced with an engineer battalion, a reconnaissance troop and other supporting units.
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Post by oklahoma on Jul 16, 2009 17:47:42 GMT -5
hey john...indeed, i learned something. methinks, i get it, although much more involved than i had envisioned. as i underestand it, the two regimental combat teams added to the 31 US infantry regt makes the three regiment philippine division. the 45th and 57th philippine scout infantry regts, plus other units would compose the newly formed second triangle division. or some such similar arrangement. although this is overly simplified, i had always thought a triangle division consisted of three regiments, whereas the square division possessed four such units (or two brigades). no big deal though. what kinda blows my mind is the juggling of the artillery,etc. anyhow, thanks much for the update. one of the main things i like about this site (and the corregidor board) is hardly a day goes by that i dont learn something new. as i said in my earlier post, i always get a lift out of your postings, especially the "what if" situations. everybody loves to second guess and when it involves military history i find it most enjoyable. keep 'em coming.
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Post by johnbryan on Jul 19, 2009 19:26:32 GMT -5
I finally found some of the numbers I was looking for. Hap Arnold placed the re-armament of the Philippines on their number one priority list. It was decided that 165 B-17's and B-24's and 230 modern fighters be assigned to the Philippines by the end of 1942. This does not include all of the light, medium and dive bombers, torpedo planes, PBY Catalina flying boats, training, liason and transport aircraft that would naturally have to be sent to make up a well rounded air force. There were no appreciable numbers of aircraft sent to Europe during the last six months of 1941. Everything that could fly was sent either by boat or flown directly to the PI.
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Post by johnbryan on Jul 19, 2009 19:31:28 GMT -5
More information: " Hap Arnold said that "We must get every B-17 availiable to the Philippines as soon as possible."
"His statement was not an exaggeration. On the outbreak of war there were 913 U. S. Army aircraft scattered among the numerous overseas bases. This number of aircraft included 61 heavy, 157 medium, and 59 light bombers and 636 fighters. More than half of the total of heavy bombers and one sixth of the fighters were already in the Philippines.43 Within a few months this number would have been raised considerably." Added to this number were B-24 Liberators that were now coming off the assembly lines. These too were slated for duty in the far east.
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Post by johnbryan on Jul 19, 2009 19:36:45 GMT -5
Continental US defense went a-begging in favor of Hemisphere Defense, according to US Air Force Documents. "The proposed transfer would have left only 17 B-17's within the continental US. Eleven of these were obsolete B-17 A and B models. Five B-17-E models were undergoing trial flights. 12 B-17's of the Hawaiian Department were also being readied for the flight to the Philippines." "General Spaatz expressed the hope that an additional 48 B-17's and B-24's could be dispatched" from the US to the PI by 6 December. Added to this, the vast majority, if not all of the A-20's, B-25's and B-26's that fought over New Guinea would have been based on Luzon as well.
US Air Force Historical Study III Army Air Action in the Philippines, Netherlands East Indies
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Post by johnbryan on Jul 19, 2009 19:48:29 GMT -5
Where the 57 Canadian bren gun carriers came from:
dated December 19, 1941. Here are the contents of the letter:
"Subject Canadian Boats in Manila
It was determined from Command McKinley, Canadian Royal Navy Reserve that there was one boat in Manila that had supplies on it for the Canadian Government. The manifest was in the hands of the Quarter Master's General's Office in Ottawa, Canada. Colonel Spearing, of this latter's office furnishes the following information:
- 446 tire assemblies - 90 tires - 6 carton tubes - 20 cases motor truck stores - 1600 pieces of auto parts - 45 Harley Davidson motorcycles - 25 boxes of Harley Davidson parts - 15 3-ton cahsis, cabs and special bodies - 48 3/4 ton trucks with van bodies - 2 3/4 ton trcuks with water tanks - 57 universal gun carriers - 153 cases of autoparts - 190 boxes of auto parts - 2 loose packages - 6 sedans - 48 trucks - 15 trucks with van bodies - 1 box auto parts.
All motor vehicles are boxed. Total ship tonnage 1836; total weight tonnage 693. this equipment is the complete equipment of two motorized infantry battalions and all vehicles are FORD and GMC. Any arrangement for transfer of this propertry should be handled through the Master General of the Ordnance. The boat is the SS DON JOSE, either in Manila or in Mindanao.
Singed
CP GROSS Colonel, General Staff Chief, Transportation Branch"
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Post by oklahoma on Jul 19, 2009 22:10:17 GMT -5
hey john...you have come up with some classy info here. quite an excellent job of research. are you by chance an archivist, college instructor, etc. whatever, you are obviously an ardent student of military history. as for the buildup in the PI, genl arnold certainly put much faith in the B-17 concentration at clark field. it was almost like putting all of ones eggs in one basket. one can only wonder how effective the fortresses would actually have been had half of them not been knocked out on the ground on Dec 8, 1941. the remainder were pretty well chopped up by the japs before being decimated down in the java area. i am sure you are aware that a final few ended up in egypt as i understand it. for years i assumed that on the long trans pacific run from california, that the B-17 ferry trek followed the china clipper route, but was surprised that from wake island the route went south across the mandated islands (during the darkness of night) to darwin in australia thence north to the PI. you, i am sure, were aware of this fact. as for those bren gun carriers, werent they destined for hong kong and the canadian troops garrisoning that british bastion? one last little tidbit....i served in korea with one of the poor souls who was an aerial gunner on one of the B-17s destroyed on the ground at clark. after his ship was lost he and others from the USAAF were issued springfield rifles and a sergeant york type steel helmet and served with provisional air corps regiment before being taken prisoner, making the trek to odonnell/cabanatuan, hell ships and coal mines in japan. he was married to a japanese woman at the time (1952-53). quite an interesting guy. i have posted this story before, either on this board or the corregidor one, but thought i would throw it out there again in case you might have missed it and find it of interest. again, you seem to be a very thorough and efficient researcher. it, obviously, is a labor of love. always enjoy talking with you. postscript...i guess there is one bit of "silver lining" in all this. at least the US 5th Air Force was pretty well stocked with aircraft to start the southwest pacific aerial campaign once port moresby was secure.
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Post by VeeVee on Jul 20, 2009 5:50:40 GMT -5
Yes, great information John. Thanks.
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Post by johnbryan on Jul 20, 2009 9:16:20 GMT -5
hey john...you have come up with some classy info here. quite an excellent job of research. are you by chance an archivist, college instructor, etc. whatever, you are obviously an ardent student of military history. as for the buildup in the PI, genl arnold certainly put much faith in the B-17 concentration at clark field. it was almost like putting all of ones eggs in one basket. one can only wonder how effective the fortresses would actually have been had half of them not been knocked out on the ground on Dec 8, 1941. the remainder were pretty well chopped up by the japs before being decimated down in the java area. i am sure you are aware that a final few ended up in egypt as i understand it. for years i assumed that on the long trans pacific run from california, that the B-17 ferry trek followed the china clipper route, but was surprised that from wake island the route went south across the mandated islands (during the darkness of night) to darwin in australia thence north to the PI. you, i am sure, were aware of this fact. as for those bren gun carriers, werent they destined for hong kong and the canadian troops garrisoning that british bastion? one last little tidbit....i served in korea with one of the poor souls who was an aerial gunner on one of the B-17s destroyed on the ground at clark. after his ship was lost he and others from the USAAF were issued springfield rifles and a sergeant york type steel helmet and served with provisional air corps regiment before being taken prisoner, making the trek to odonnell/cabanatuan, hell ships and coal mines in japan. he was married to a japanese woman at the time (1952-53). quite an interesting guy. i have posted this story before, either on this board or the corregidor one, but thought i would throw it out there again in case you might have missed it and find it of interest. again, you seem to be a very thorough and efficient researcher. it, obviously, is a labor of love. always enjoy talking with you. postscript...i guess there is one bit of "silver lining" in all this. at least the US 5th Air Force was pretty well stocked with aircraft to start the southwest pacific aerial campaign once port moresby was secure. My humble thanks to both you and Vic! I am but a retired auto worker with a lifetime interest in military history. RE: the bren gun carriers. They were indeed intended for the Canadians in the Hong Kong Garrison. The ship that carried them was sailing without escort at the time of Pearl Harbor and put into Manila Bay, where they were later absorbed into MacArthur's forces. There were no bren guns for them, so they were armed with machine guns taken from battle damaged US fighter planes. RE: the guy from the provisional air corps regiment. Those guys were really put through the wringer. Even though they had limited infantry training, they fought at the Battle of the Pockets against the Japanese invaders along the Bataan shore. With the aid of US armor and reinforcement infantry, they managed to completely destroy the Japanese invasion attempt. IIRC, the B-17s flew from the mainland USA to Oahu, then to Wake, Guam, Rabaul, Port Moresby and then to Darwin before proceding on to Clark Field on Luzon. It is always a distinct pleasure to speak with you guys as well!
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Post by johnbryan on Jul 20, 2009 10:34:00 GMT -5
More information:
Added to this: Some additional information taken from the "Green Books."
"The schedule of shipments finally established in November provided for sending to the Philippines some 20,000 troops, about one third of them Air Force units, on eleven troopships to sail from fan Francisco between 21 November and 9 December 1941.32 The Holbrook, carrying 2,000 troops and equipment (the 147th Field Artillery Regiment and the 148th Field Artillery Regiment minus one battalion), and the Republic carrying 2,630 troops and equipment (the 2d Battalion of the 131st field Artillery Regiment, the 27th Bombardment Group, and 48 Air Corps officers), sailed from San Francisco 21-22 November. Convoyed by the USS Pensacola, they were due to arrive in the Philippines on 14 January 1942.
Sailings for 15,000 troops were scheduled for 5-9 December. The President Johnson with 2,500 troops the 2d Battalion of the 138th Field Artillery Regiment and three squadrons of the 35th Pursuit Group), the Etolin with 1,400 troops " including the 218th Field Artillery Regiment minus the 2d Battalion) and the Bliss sailed from San Francisco on 5 December 1941. The following day the President Garfield sailed from the same port with the remainder of the 35th Pursuit Group.33
In addition to the 30,000 U.S. Army troops present, and those due to arrive in the Philippines, there were 80,000 troops in the Philippine Army, including the ten divisions to be activated by 15 December. The total strength of General MacArthur's command--present, en route, and under orders--amounted to about 137,000, considerably less than the 200,000 he had estimated as sufficient for defensive operations.34
The Far Eastern Air Force had 35 four engine bombers and 107 P-40E's on hand, and 38 more P-40E's and 52 A-24's (dive bombers) were en route in the Pensacola convoy. In addition, 37 pursuits and 48 four-engine bombers were due to leave the United States by 6 and 10 December, respectively. As for ground force matériel, equipment for one antiaircraft regiment had recently arrived, as well as 108 tanks and 50 self-propelled 75-mm. guns (tank destroyers). Forty-eight 75-mm. guns were en route (with the Pensacola convoy), and more guns and a considerable amount of ammunition were scheduled to be shipped.35 "
Lastly, there was also the 34th and 161st Infantry Regiments awaiting shipment from San Francisco, as was a battalion of M-3 Grant medium tanks in New Orleans, Louisiana.
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Post by oklahoma on Jul 20, 2009 11:43:54 GMT -5
hey john....macarthur would still have had a substantial force if all these units,etc had reached the PI, but i still gotta believe, even after a prolonged resistance, that the result would have been the same, only with more alllied captives. you just have to have control of the ocean to sustain such a large force so far into enemy areas. on the other hand, i gotta believe that they would have held out till late 1942 or early 1943. also the enemy would have had to hold back substantial forces to subdue the philippine islands defenders and their onrush southward would have, at least, been partially derailed or slowed. i, again, say "aint hindsight based conjecture" fun? ?
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Post by rickthelibrarian on Jul 22, 2009 8:03:45 GMT -5
I had read that MacArthur was offered a whole infantry division, but he only wanted another infantry regiment to "flesh out" the Philippine Division. That was indeed the 161st. It was the "extra" regiment of the 41st (National Guard) Division from the Pacific Northwest, when it was converted from a "square" to a "triangular" unit. I know it well, because it was headquartered in my hometown of Spokane WA. When shipment to the Philippines was cancelled, it was attached for the remainder of WWII to the 25th "Tropic Lightning" Division.
Given the horrible losses suffered by National Guard units in the Philippines, I often wonder if Spokane and the surrounding area would have had a large number of orphans and widows, had the 161st made it to the Philippines. My best childhood friend's father was with the 161st, but I don't know if he was in the Guard originally or a later replacement.
The 2n BN of the 131st Artillery Regiment was shipped to Java in early 1942, where it was captured when the island fell. Sort of ironic when you think of it!
The 34th Regiment, like the 161st, made it to Hawaii and was assigned to the 24th ID there.
The 52 A-24s of the 27th BG made it as far as Australia, where they were assigned to other units and were used with indifferent results in New Guinea. Virtually all the 27th's personnel, including pilots nd groundcrew arrived in the Philippines in November. Except for a couple of B-18s, they had no aircraft when the war broke out.
Great topic!
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Post by oklahoma on Jul 22, 2009 10:30:18 GMT -5
hey rick....there was another national guard outfit from texas that was squandered in java. they were also an artillery unit, i believe. cant remember the numerical designation, but they were referred to as the "jacksboro boys". most of them were from the jacksboro, texas area. they were POWs with some survivors of the USS Houston in prison pens initially in java. just another subject that i should have looked more into a long time ago. there are so many of these subjects/topics that i just scratch the surface of and then another interesting looking historical event comes to my attention and i start scratching in that direction. this situation causes me to know a little bit about many subjects but not being an authority on any. lol
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Post by rickthelibrarian on Jul 22, 2009 20:35:45 GMT -5
I think that was the 2/131 I brought up in my post. Talk about irony - missed being sent to the Philippines and got sent to Java, instead. They were a part of the 36th Division (Texas National Guard) and were detached from the "parent" 131st Field Artillery Regiment.
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Post by oklahoma on Jul 23, 2009 10:00:07 GMT -5
hey rick....you got it right. since my post i prowled thru some of my stuff and found the whole story. all i remembered was that it was part of the texas 36th infantry division NG. you talk about the short end of the stick. those poor devils must have felt like they were way out on a limb. down in java, fighting under a dutch commander, etc. at least, had they been in the PI they might have at least have felt more "at home", having an american commander, and more american/filipino units around them. whatever, the ultimate fate awaited them whether in the philippines or java....a jap prison pen. i know jacksboro, texas lost a sizable part of their young, male population in 1942 as did janesville, wisconsin when their company of national guard armor was sent off to the philippines and lost. i remember, as a kid, viewing an aerial photo (in LIFE magazine) of janesville and each house with a nation guard member serving in the PI was marked. it seemed that half the town was represented. it really brought it home to me and i was just an elementary school kid. nice talking to you. keep the good stuff coming.
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Post by johnbryan on Aug 20, 2009 15:39:06 GMT -5
I found some additional information:
"Another Cablegram (below) talks of 125 P-40 Tomahawks and 5 DC-3's being sent from California in December 1941 to Australia. From another source, I believe that the 4th Air Depot Group left San Francisco on 15 December 1941 on board the U.S. Army transport, President Coolidge, and arrived in Melbourne on 1 February 1942
Casey to Evatt Washington, 17 December 1941
Cablegram 1163
Most Secret
United States is sending "in the next few days" two fast ships (President Polk and President Cooleridge) [sc. Coolidge] from the Californian coast to Australia, containing 125 P 40 fighter aircraft, 5 transport aircraft D.C. 3 type, together with United States Army Air Corps fourth mobile depot group of about 550 officers and men. Each aircraft will be accompanied by pilot, crew, observer and armourer. Above ships will also carry some ammunition and bombs. The mobile depot group will have hand tools and such other necessary maintenance equipment and machinery as the ships can carry. This depot group is to establish itself at the most appropriate place in Australia (they presume either Brisbane or Townsville) for the assembly of the above-mentioned and subsequent arriving aircraft. Subsequently about 35 or 40 P 40 fighter aircraft with pilots, bombers and ammunition may be expected monthly as reinforcements by subsequent ships.
All of the above fighter aircraft are destined on the present plans to fly to the Philippines via Darwin and appropriate stopping places. ......
[AA: A 5954, Box 535]" Taken from Australia at War Site.
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Post by oklahoma on Aug 21, 2009 21:30:04 GMT -5
hey john....wouldnt this shipment of planes be the nucleus of what became known as the 5th united states army airforce that began operations flying out of port moresby, new guinea??? since these fighter aircraft were initially supposed to be ferried up to the PI for utilization against the japanese, i would suppose they would operate out of del monte in mindanao and/or cebu. i am not familiar with what facilities were available in cebu. wonder if del monte could support a fighter group? ? i know that half of the B-17 force stationed in prewar PI were luckily redeployed to delmonte before the clark field fiasco, therefore there were some repair/armament/overhaul/etc resources in mindanao, but could a fighter group operate effectively from this crude setup? ? i say again, "aint conjecture with the aid of hindsight fun? "
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Post by johnbryan on Sept 17, 2009 18:32:45 GMT -5
I had read that MacArthur was offered a whole infantry division, but he only wanted another infantry regiment to "flesh out" the Philippine Division. That was indeed the 161st. It was the "extra" regiment of the 41st (National Guard) Division from the Pacific Northwest, when it was converted from a "square" to a "triangular" unit. I know it well, because it was headquartered in my hometown of Spokane WA. When shipment to the Philippines was cancelled, it was attached for the remainder of WWII to the 25th "Tropic Lightning" Division. Given the horrible losses suffered by National Guard units in the Philippines, I often wonder if Spokane and the surrounding area would have had a large number of orphans and widows, had the 161st made it to the Philippines. My best childhood friend's father was with the 161st, but I don't know if he was in the Guard originally or a later replacement. The 2n BN of the 131st Artillery Regiment was shipped to Java in early 1942, where it was captured when the island fell. Sort of ironic when you think of it! The 34th Regiment, like the 161st, made it to Hawaii and was assigned to the 24th ID there. The 52 A-24s of the 27th BG made it as far as Australia, where they were assigned to other units and were used with indifferent results in New Guinea. Virtually all the 27th's personnel, including pilots nd groundcrew arrived in the Philippines in November. Except for a couple of B-18s, they had no aircraft when the war broke out. Great topic! I just found this yesterday after going through some old, already posted information. It was the confirmation of something that I'd read once before. : "SUMMARY 2. PRE-WAR BRIEF. Any evaluation of the operations of this unit mast take into consideration the precis, (See Addenda "A"), of its movement to the theater on the eve of the outbreak of hostilities, its organization 17 days before that, and the consequent lack of mutual acquaintance between the armored personnel and their supported associates, in a strange land and climate, and with weapons new to them, as well as to all present for the war except the Tank Group Commander. It was for this reason that he asked to remain with the Tank Group when division command was proposed on his arrival. In approving on 21 November, General MacArthur stated that he had asked for an armored division, to the command of which the Group Commander would succeed. The nucleus of this division was never augmented; although a medium G.H.Q. Tank Battalion had been completely equipped and was on 48-hour standby for departure for the Philippines when its orders were cancelled on 10 December 1941. ((Another light tank bn had been alerted)) " That would still have given MacArthur three battalions of M-3 Stuart light tanks, plus a single battalion of Grant medium tanks, somewhere in the neighborhood of 200 light and medium tanks overall. That's a pretty substantial sized armored fist.
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